Harm Reduction

Transcript: Microdosing vs Macrodosing

The Third Wave · April 14th, 2020

Please enjoy this transcript of the Microdosing vs Macrodosing webinar.

As one of the leading entrepreneurs in the cultural psychedelic space, Paul Austin has founded two investment-backed companies: The Third Wave and Synthesis.

Explore the answers to a number of common questions about how psychedelics can be used in different doses.

In this webinar we talk about:

  • How do you manage the timing of your doses if you’re interested in macrodosing while you’re on a microdosing protocol?
  • How can you use microdosing as an integration tool for your macrodose experiences?
  • What are the common denominators in how you prepare for a macrodose and a microdose day? What about the differences?
  • Why would it be beneficial to have a macrodose experience before you start microdosing?
  • What are three circumstances in which a macrodose might be better than a microdosing protocol?

0:00:05 Charlie Bathgate: Hey, everybody! This is Charlie Bathgate from The Third Wave here. Hope everybody is doing well this evening. I’m seeing some of you guys in the chat now. Good to see you, everybody. I’m seeing some familiar faces here, Liam. So everybody, if you could just, as we’re waiting to get everybody in here and some more people trickle in, just say, yeah, like Dave said, where you’re from, introduce yourself. Why are you here? What are you looking to learn about? Par, we got Ivan from Mexico. I probably mispronounced that. Ivan, Ivan, sorry about that. [chuckle] Nash, a regular, obviously, great to see you. My name is Charlie Bathgate. I’m taking Paul’s place here. Usually, he’s the one who usually hosts these, but we’re mixing it up today. So I’m glad to have you guys in here with me. I don’t know where you all are in the world. Seems like mostly North America here. I am actually in Thailand right now. So it is 7:30 in the morning, my time. So if you see some light coming in from the side here, don’t be disoriented. It’s just ’cause I’m on the other side of the world. And if for any reason, and any of you guys are in Southeast Asia or find yourself in Chiang Mai, Thailand in the next six months, definitely let me know. It would be great to meet up with some fellow psychonauts out here in Southeast Asia.

0:01:37 CB: Can everybody hear me? And see me? Someone just said there’s a frozen image. I just wanna make sure I’m coming through okay. Everybody, if you could just let me know in the chat if you can see me and hear me. Okay, it seems like everybody is okay. Good, good, good. Awesome. Alright, we’re just gonna give it a couple more minutes here. A few hundred people in here right now. So that’s fantastic to see. Looking forward to talking to you guys about the intersection of microdosing and macrodosing today. It’s gonna be a good 30-45 minutes. Okay, Robert, sorry you reconnected. It’s all good, thank you. Yeah, before we get into the meat of today into the webinar, I’ll give you guys a quick background about myself. I’ve been working here with The Third Wave for over a year now. I met Paul in January of last year, and we started… We immediately connected in terms of the mission of what he wanted to build here at Third Wave. And so, our entrepreneurial experiences and how that they could combine together to work together.

0:02:53 CB: So my background has always been in entrepreneurship, and my main focus has always been around sort of educational design and building community. And I’ve worked in a coaching capacity and a mentorship capacity a lot, primarily with creatives. So actually, in Los Angeles with screenwriters, directors, producers, that sort of thing. Also, traders in stock market options and equities traders in the big bad world of finance, and entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs. So I’ve had that sort of diversity of experience. All three of those occupations are very mentally tough. They can be very mentally strenuous, so that’s… I’ve always been deeply driven in psychology, and that’s part of what drew me to working with those people in those capacities. And I’ve been drawn to psychedelics for over the last 10 years in my life. I’m 31 and I’ve had long bouts of depression, anxiety myself and also, been diagnosed ADD as a kid, whether you believe in that diagnosis or not, all different type of conversation, but I think a lot of people in the room can probably relate to that.

0:04:05 CB: And mental illness runs in my family pretty deeply. So mental illness and not just that, but also self-optimization, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, living and working in 10 start-up environments, also as an athlete. I was constantly looking for ways to help myself be more present, tap into my natural strengths, maintain my energy levels all without burning myself out. And psychedelics, once they flopped on my radar about 10 years ago, had a… Started having huge impacts on my ability to, not only keep myself healthy, but work through sources of resistance in my life, things that were holding me back. They’ve given me perspective on myself and really, forced me to look at things that maybe I otherwise wouldn’t have looked at. But they’ve also helped me to engage with my life and my work, my relationships with a greater sense of creativity, joy, empathy. So they’ve been both a challenging presence for me but also, one that has facilitated deep amounts of growth and joy. And that’s what I hope that everyone here can say the same thing and hopefully, we can facilitate some of that here through this webinar.

0:05:24 CB: So it should go without saying, but I’m not a therapist or a doctor, I’m not a psychiatrist. I’m not a researcher. So my job here is to communicate some of the best practices that we’ve learned through our team’s collective experiences, through Paul’s work, through all the conversations we’ve had with everybody in The Third Wave community, which is, at this point, hundreds of conversations. It’s been really, really incredible to crowdsource a lot of the information that we’ve provided. And to give you guys some of the best practices and put some things on the radar, but especially if you’re in any sort of situation where you are… You have a pretty serious diagnosis, anything in the range of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, psychosis. Or if you’re completely new to psychedelics, you should really make sure that you’re trying to do this with some measure of professional supervision. Psychedelics can be destabilizing, by nature, and they can be extremely challenging substances to work with, especially if you are not doing them in the right context. And that’s a lot of what we’re gonna talk about today. But I would just… I wanna make sure that nobody in this webinar and nobody that comes to Third Wave thinks that we’re… That there’s any sort of promise of these being a panacea.

0:06:48 CB: Though you still have to do the work. And if you don’t use these substances properly, they can have serious adverse effects. So enough with the note of caution, but please hear the note of caution. [chuckle] So let’s see, let’s make sure that we’ve got… Let’s see, we got some more people coming in. Will we be discussing benefits? Maybe a little bit, Antika, maybe a little bit. We’ll get to the… We’ll get to that in the Q&A if you want to. And guys, when you have questions throughout the webinar, feel free to just drop them into the chat and Paul will be in there moderating in just a second here. But then, we’ll also be… We’ll be doing Q&A towards the end of the webinar. So feel free to just drop questions in there, and then I’ll go through it again, and we can talk about all this. So let me see here, make sure we’ve got a couple more, couple more. Nash, “Had a little intersection of microdosing and macrodosing this weekend.” It’ll be fun to see a lot of people that we’ve met and know from the community in here. So this is… It’s really cool to see everybody, see everybody. Awesome, alright. So great. I think we’ve got a pretty good group here. So let’s get started, let’s dive into the intersection of microdosing and macrodosing, guys.

0:08:17 CB: So let’s start with just the definition of a microdose and a macrodose right? Real quick, a macrodose is what you would typically consider a trip. So visual distortions, alteration of your visual perception, loss of your sense of time and space, becoming acutely aware of elements of your environments, especially nature. As Stanislav Grof said, “Complex insight into the nature of existence and into yourself.” So that is usually in the range of 100 micrograms of LSD and 2 grams of psilocybin mushrooms. That’s usually what we’re talking about here. I think Paul may have just come in as a presenter. So I don’t know, can you guys see Paul? [chuckle]

0:09:07 Paul Austin: Can you see that? ‘Cause I might be doing this… Can you hear, me Charlie?

0:09:11 CB: Okay. Yeah, I can hear you.

0:09:14 Paul Austin: Cool! Go ahead.

0:09:15 CB: Okay. You wanna stay on live audio in here? Okay, there we… Oh, there we go, alright. [chuckle] He’s in New York, I’m in Thailand, guys. We got a… We have a little coordination here. So yeah, Paul will be in the chat moderating, but I’ll do the speaking here for now. So yeah, and macrodose. We’re talking about typically 100 micrograms of LSD, 2 grams of psilocybin mushrooms. That’s usual. Everybody’s based on your physiology, your sensitivity, potential medications that you’re taking, which could blunt or potentiate the effects of the psychedelic, your tolerance and your… What the macrodose would be for you could change. But typically, we’re looking at 100 micrograms of LSD, 2 grams of psilocybin mushrooms. That’s usually what people talk about, the context of a macrodose.

0:10:02 CB: A microdose is usually 1/10 of that, of a macrodose. So usually, in the range of 10-20 micrograms of LSD and 0.1, 0.2 grams of psilocybin. And what you’re gonna experience in a microdose is much more smaller effects that can be equally as profound as what you would experience in a macrodose as they’re accumulated over time. But in the short-term, the day that you experience that, you ingest the microdose, typically, you’re talking about sub-perceptual effects. So that means no visual distortions whatsoever. Everybody has a different way of approaching their microdosing. Some people like to feel it a little bit more and some people don’t wanna have any sort of noticeable effect. So what people are typically targeting with microdose is a slight uplifted mood, greater degree of self-awareness, and capacity for self-reflection, greater access to flow states, that’s that sense of being in the zone, being able to lose your sense of yourself, and you typically pour yourself into work, creative work. You just feel like everything is coming quite easily to you. This is one of those sort of peak states that humans can really experience and achieve. And so, microdosing is accelerating your access to flow states is one of the reasons why so many people are drawn to microdosing.

0:11:25 CB: Typically, we’ve seen this a lot from people who take the course, the microdosing course that we offer, and people in the community, a decrease in addictive tendencies. So people just find themselves, it’s easier to quit cigarettes, it’s easier to cut down on their alcohol intake. You just naturally find yourself more inclined to take better care of yourself. And then you have an increase in sense of connection and empathy, often, with, that could be with yourself, maybe the most important [chuckle] relationship. With your co-workers, with your family, your friends, your significant other. You just… It’s find… You find yourself a little bit more capable of putting yourself in the shoes of the other person, a little bit greater sense of patience. So those are some of the benefits, the things that we target with microdosing. It’s not always gonna result in bad. And that’s one thing more we’re gonna talk about here, is how to try and maximize the chances that you get to have those experiences.

0:12:25 CB: So let’s talk about one of the main questions that we get and it’s, what are the common allies on how you prepare for a macrodose versus a microdose day, right? People talk a lot about preparation for macrodosing. A lot of our preparation for microdosing. We have tons of information on The Third Wave about both, but what are some in the areas of overlap that are important? And I think the first part, I think everybody here has heard about set and setting. This is the bible, the very basic steps of how to responsibly take psychedelics and your set is short for your mindset. Where is your head space when you’re coming into the psychedelic experience? Where is your mind at?

0:13:11 CB: Making sure that as much as possible, you’re in a place where you can accept whatever comes up for you, in the psychedelic experience that you’re not really anxious, certainly that you’re not suffering from any sort of acute mental illness or a breakdown and especially if you’re doing it without any sort of supervision, that’s it’s your mindset. Where is your head at when you go on this experience? And then setting, your physical surroundings. Right? Are you, sitting in traffic in Los Angeles? I really, really hope not. Or are you in the privacy of your own home or are you working with a therapist in their office? What’s your physical environment like? And I think one of the most important areas of overlap between preparation of macrodose and microdose has to do with intentions. And personally for me I will say that coming into my microdosing experiences, I’ve had plenty of macrodosing experiences.

0:14:13 CB: But when I first started microdosing, I was kind of dismissive, at the idea of intentions because I just sort of chalked everything up to the physiology of things. And I was like, this is just about the neurological mechanisms of what’s happening with, when the psychedelic hits my brain. Intentions are sort of woo-woo, this is not, this is not gonna have that big of an effect on me. And I was wrong, I was definitely wrong to be dismissive of it. Intentions both for a macrodose experience, and for a microdose experience are maybe the most influential thing that you can, the most influential tool that you can use to really try and maximize the chances that you’re gonna have to be able to achieve the goals that you wanna achieve in your experience. So one of the things that you can do in terms of, I mean, well, first, let’s start on, what is an intention? You are coming in, your intention is the head space that you hope to inhabit when you enter this experience. And your goals for what you want the experience to provide you. And it’s a very different to a different… It’s important to differentiate between an intention and expectation, right? Setting an intention, let’s say I want to be, I just want to be more present and I wanna be more patient, compassionate towards myself, right? That’s a very basic goal, that’s something we hear a lot from people in the course.

0:15:42 CB: That’s not something that, and that could be true for a macrodose experience or a microdose experience, right? That doesn’t mean just because I set that intention and I come in with that head space, and I sort of let myself sit in that before I ingest the substance and maybe write it down and to journal about it before going into the experience. That’s not a guarantee. That is not something that, you’re not, psychedelics are, they’re unpredictable. They could take you in any different direction. So just because you set an intention doesn’t mean that you’re going to have that exact experience. So it’s important to differentiate between intention and expectation. Letting go of expectations is a pretty big part of the psychedelic experience, and that’s why we advise anybody especially when you’re new to psychedelics, part of your intention, sort of foundation of it, should be based around acceptance. Acceptance of whatever comes up, acceptance of the fact that you might be presented with information, your mind may present you with wisdom, with insight, that in the moment you might not be able to understand and to reconcile with the fact that it actually really is speaking to you about what you wanna learn about.

0:16:58 CB: And upon further reflection and upon going through your integration process, you might look back on that experience and that insight that you had, and just say, “Wow, this was… The substance was actually sort of teaching me and revealing a lot to me about what I wanted to learn about. I just couldn’t kind of understand that at the time.” And also when it comes to challenging experiences. Someone in the chat earlier brought up bad trips, as they say. And we like we more often refer to them as challenging experiences, but setting your intention to be, part of your intention to be accepting whatever comes up, can really help you if challenging thoughts start to come up. Because what you don’t wanna be is, you don’t wanna be in a position where you’re fighting with psychedelic. And that is true for microdosing as much it is for macrodosing. Thoughts are going to, your brain is gonna kinda de-compartmentalize, and things that you may have kind of pushed away from your conscious awareness are gonna come up to the surface.

0:17:57 CB: That’s one of the reasons why these substances helps move through sources resistance so effectively. But you have to be accepting of that and you have to be willing to build along with that and by sort of setting your intention to do that you can along with maybe additional goals that you might want to achieve, you can really increase the odds that you’re gonna have a good experience. So there’s a lot of things that you can do in terms of preparation for both a microdose and macrodose. And I’m gonna go into a little bit more of them here. But I will say that in terms of what we’re seeing, a lot of conclusions coming out of the research that’s going on, through our own personal experiences through the experience of people in our community, setting intention, if you’re gonna walk away with one thing in this conversation that is huge, and that’s definitely not something to be ignored. And one thing you can do also is terms of setting your intention is, and this is especially effective in a macrodose, but for microdosing, is use a physical object and attach some meaning to that. Use it as a reminder of what your intention is. Maybe that’s a picture of your kids, your family, on your desk.

0:19:08 CB: Maybe it’s a statue that you got when… A statue of the Buddha when you got when you were traveling in Thailand. Of course, I’m coming up with the Thailand reference, ’cause I’m still in Thailand, but whatever it is, a physical reminder of your intention can be a really, really effective way to draw your attention continuously back to what your initial intention was for your experience. So yeah, the next part is, this is more pragmatic, but it’s just accurate measurement of your dose. You need to know, not only how much you’re taking, so that means if you’re taking psilocybin mushrooms, making sure you have an accurate scale, weighing it out. With LSD we certainly recommend body metric dosing. That goes also with a lot of research chemicals out there. Don’t cut off pieces of a tab, you don’t know whether or not the LSD is distributed evenly across a tab, so that can be borderline dangerous, but also not the best way to ensure that you’re gonna be accurate in terms of your dose. So you need to know how much you’re taking, right? And we have a lot of information about this on the website and certainly on microdosing course too, if you wanna kind of dive deeper into that.

0:20:24 CB: But you also need to test your substance, you need to know what you’re taking, especially for people, if you’re out there and you’re buying any of this stuff off the dark web or any sort of online source. Or you’re accessing this through someone that you don’t know, you don’t trust, you don’t… I mean, I wouldn’t buy from anybody that you don’t trust, but if you don’t have familiarity with the substance already, test it and Test Kits Plus is a great resource for testing kits. There’s other ones out there, but better safe than sorry. Just test it, know what you’re taking.

0:21:00 CB: I know there’s an aspect… Another area of overlap in terms of preparation is that psychedelics can increase… Have been shown to increase a personality trait called openness, right? Openness to new experiences. And when you combine that with… Especially with microdosing with your potential to tap into flow states, more readily, they can lead you to think that making big decisions, in the moment, is the right move. And making sure that you have a process in place, not to do that is important and that’s a good part of your preparation. And I think that this is something that people probably are ready for at macrodose. Most people probably know that if you take 2.5 grams of psilocybin and then you have an instinct, five hours later, to call your boss and tell him how you feel about him. It’s probably not the best idea, it’s probably better to write those thoughts down and then give it a solid 24-48 hours. I’ve heard some people say you should never make major decisions within two weeks of having a macrodose experience. But give it at least 24 to 48 hours before you make any big decisions.

0:22:17 CB: There’s that aspect to it, but then there’s also, with microdosing, and Paul and I have both experienced this, it can make you… It can just increase that sort of… It can put you almost into a manic state, is what I would say. In which case, you tend to be, it’s very easy to toggle back and forth between different topics and kinda dive deep into things you feel, and, in some ways, you are more effective and it’s easier for you to take on topics of conversation. And so what that can lead to, and especially when you’re tapping into that flow state, over and over, is a little bit of impulsivity, and it’s always a good idea to have some rules written down for yourself. So if you’re gonna microdose, have just a structure in place for yourself so that you don’t make major decisions within 24 hours, that day. Sleep on it. Like why not sleep on it? If you have a new business arrangement, a new business opportunity that someone’s offering to you, and it’s a new partnership, something major like that, don’t… There’s no reason to agree to it that day. Give it some time. Give it 24 hours. Create a little bit of separation so that you know that it’s not the psychedelic that’s helping to induce that decision.

0:23:39 CB: You know, that you have the confidence, that you did it in sort of… In both… That you agreed with the decision you were making, both with the psychedelic in your system and with it not in your system. And then this is something that is probably not as relevant for people who are much more experienced with psychedelics, but especially if you’re new to microdosing. It’s also important to have someone that you can call, somebody who has some experience with psychedelics, somebody who knows you, who you trust, who you can talk to. And when you’re first trying out microdosing, just be able to tell them, “Hey, I might give you a call in the next eight to 12 hours and it’d be great if you could have the phone available.” In case anything comes up for you, in case you start to have a little bit of a challenging experience. It’s really not likely with a microdose. You’re talking about very very low doses and very subtle effects, but it’s better safe than sorry, you know, you might as well do that. And then lastly, especially when you’re in the beginning of microdosing, and this is absolutely true for a macrodose don’t put yourself into a state of transition.

0:24:47 CB: So don’t make it so that you have to get in your car and go to work or that you have to go shopping, go grocery shopping or pick up the kids, or anything like that. In the beginning of your microdosing protocol and certainly, if you’re macrodosing, make sure that you can just be in the same place for the duration of the experience. With psilocybin mushroom, that’s typically about six to eight hours, with LSD, that can be more in the range of eight to 12. Just make sure that you can be in one place and you’re not gonna be sort of moving around a lot. So there’s a lot of the similarities. And again, if you guys have questions, just please drop them in the chat. Paul will be answering some of those and then we’ll go through them in the Q&A as well.

0:25:36 CB: So what about some of the differences between a macrodose and microdose. One of the things that… Once you get a little bit more experience with microdosing, one of the ways that you can differentiate them is setting. I’ll give the example of the New York City subway. I would never… I’m not experienced, I’ve heard actually… Heard Hamilton Morris talking about this, who is probably one of the most experienced psychedelic users out there, and also the guy has enough experience to be able to do what he wants. He’s earned that right. But I have nowhere near enough comfort with psychedelics to take a macrodose, and then go sit on the New York City subway. That is a potentially dangerous situation for me.

0:26:22 CB: But for a microdose, especially once I got my microdosing protocol down, and I really understood how various dose levels would affect me, putting myself in different settings was actually a really good way to learn about myself and learn about how I related to my environment. This can be especially true for people in a professional context. When you go to work, and I’m not… This is really speaking from my experience, I’m not encouraging anybody to take a bunch of psychedelics and go to work, and again, this is… We’re talking about microdosing in this context, not taking 2 grams of mushrooms and going to your job. But especially when you’re working through some of what you wanna try to understand about you and your relationship to your job, microdosing can be a really good… A really effective way to increase your level of self-awareness.

0:27:15 CB: To really increase the effectiveness of your scanner of what’s going on in your environment. What’s the dynamic between you and your co-worker? Obviously, as I talked about, being able to tap into flow states to a varying degree is something that you’ll notice abou, “Okay, when I fell into that flow state, what was going on? How did I… Was it because I made sure that I had my email turned off and had set aside two hours, and I canceled that meeting so that I could have two, two half hours of uninterrupted focus?” You start to have a greater degree of awareness around what’s working for you, what isn’t. And, also deeper understanding of things you might wanna change, how you’re relating to your job, is it fulfilling for you? I think that there’s a little bit of a backlash, not a little bit, there’s a backlash against, in some aspects of the psychedelic community, about microdosing and whether or not it’s just sort of used as a tool… Being used as a tool for, you know, sort of Silicon Valley entrepreneur types who are just trying to kind of make themselves better at jobs that really are not helping anybody. That are fueling the capitalistic system.

0:28:28 CB: And everybody is entitled to their opinion and there could be some truth to that. But I also think that, especially in comparison to a drug like an Adderall, ADD medications, your typical performance enhancers, something like Modafinil or something like that, psychedelics are gonna increase the odds that you’re gonna have self-reflection, you’re gonna consider yourself in greater context in relationship to other people and the world. And I think I’ve certainly had experiences like this, and I’ve had a lot of conversations with people in my coaching work with people in The Third Wave and then just in the community, they find that they started taking LSD to increase their productivity but then they realized, “Hey I’m not as fulfilled in my job as I thought I was, and there’s huge opportunities for me to either change something in my job and how I work, or to potentially change my job entirely.”

0:29:23 CB: And so, I think that that’s one of the things that’s so exciting about these substances if they’re used appropriately is yes, they can be, sort of, performance-enhancing. They can help you do better work, but I think they will also increase the odds that you’re gonna be doing the kind of work that, can not only be of greater and deeper benefit to yourself and greater alignment with yourself and your priorities, but also work that will be a benefit to people beyond yourself, let’s say. So yeah. And then another aspect that is different in terms of how you would use and prepare and especially integrate a macrodose experience and microdose experience, is integration, right? So integration is a big word right now in the psychedelic community. And it’s really about how do you reconcile the experiences that you’ve had, the insights that you’ve had in your psychedelic experience, how do you combine those into… Carry those on and integrate them into your life outside of that experience?

0:30:27 CB: And often what you see from macrodoses, you go in, you have some preparatory work and then you have the day where you take your microdose… Sorry macrodose, you have your session. And then in subsequent days, weeks, you’re working with somebody, working through a process of really, sort of, analyzing what happened, what are the insights that you experienced? And kind of digging through those and applying those to maybe a therapeutic framework that you’re currently working within. Or if it’s from a professional standpoint, that you have professional goals for your macrodose. Creative expansion, which is the next thing I’m gonna talk about in a bit here. Working continuously on how to integrate those insights. And I’m gonna talk about innovation here and how microdosing and macrodosing can be used in combination with one another, in a second. But, one of the things that is different for microdosing, macrodosing, is that with microdosing you’re doing it over a continuous period of time, right? Over much longer period of time. macrodose is select to Saturday, a couple of hours.

0:31:37 CB: It’s that day, it’s a confined period of space and time. Whereas with microdosing it’s over the course of, let’s say, five weeks for a lot of people when they first start out. So it’s more of a daily process. It’s a daily ritual, you’re not doing it every day. You’re doing it, if you’re following a sort of Jim Fadiman protocol which is the basic starter approach, you’re doing one day on, two days off, one day on. So if you microdose on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday you would take off, Thursday you would microdose again. But the process of tracking your experience, of tracking your results of integration, of reflecting upon what’s changing for you. And how the sort of subtle pieces, these smaller pieces are kind of… The tectonic plates are shifting a little bit, is a little bit more in depth because it’s happening over such a longer period of time. And that’s why we always talk about a couple of things. Journaling is an extremely effective practice.

0:32:36 CB: And this is another thing that I was a little bit dismissive of when I first started out. But journaling is a way to just constantly sort of inhabit the, and honor the work that you’re doing from… With psychedelic. And to not only continuously reflect upon what’s changing for you and how you’re feeling into it, how you’re feeling with it, how you’re relating to it, but also, it’s really really powerful when you do that over a long period of time. I’ve talked with a number of people in my coaching sessions, and they’ve said that after I suggested them to do that, they’ve gotten back to me and they’ve said “This was so powerful because I didn’t realize how much was changing for me. And I started my journaling process right when I started my microdosing protocol. And five weeks later, yes, I knew I’d changed a little bit, made some progress, but looking back on what I was writing about on day one, compared to what I’m writing about now has been a really powerful experience for me, because I just didn’t realize the degree of the impact that this protocol was having on me, and how much I’ve evolved in my thinking about certain things.” So it can be just a big confidence booster, and a big help for you to see, to kind of track your trajectory of where things… How you’ve changed.

0:33:57 CB: Give me a second, I’m gonna pull up some things on the screen here. These are just two resources that we have, that we provide for people in the microdosing course, one of them is what we call the Results Tracking Template, and this is… It’s nothing too crazy. You guys can customize one, create customize one yourself, but it is a spreadsheet that you can use on a daily basis to track your results. And it kinda keeps you honest in the way of asking you set your intentions, tracking when you’re ingesting the dose, and everything like that. And then this is especially for the bio-hackers out there, self-optimization types. Looking at how much you’re taking, the dose amount, everything like that. But all the way into… You can start tracking things like blood pressure, heart rate variability, which is a measure of your nervous system health. You can get into the sort of food that you eat, and aspects of your diet. Even if… Like if you’re trying to quit cigarettes, “How many cigarettes do I have today?”

0:35:05 CB: And you can really kind of see… Also if you’re taking other supplements and medications, which is something that can be very risky, we definitely… That’s more for sort of advanced microdosers. We don’t suggest just throwing in a bunch of supplements in addition to your microdosing protocol. But as you start feeling more comfortable with things, and you learn more about potentially the synergistic effects between microdosing and let’s say a supplment like lions mane, mushroom teeth. You can start looking at “How are these things affecting my experience? How are these changing my day-to-day, and how can I get more out of what I’m doing?” So there’s that part of it. And then we also… The other thing here, sorry guys…

0:35:52 CB: Our microdosing workbook, right? And this is more for qualitative side of things, more from a journaling perspective, but it’s 127 pages. It’s quite in depth, and it’s really a way for you guys to not only take a good inventory before you start of “This is where I’m at, this is where I wanna go.” But also on a daily basis, to track what has your experience been, really kind of giving you prompts to dig into the journaling experience. So if journaling doesn’t come naturally to you, that sort of a structure is something that… And that sort of framework whether you’re getting through the microdosing experience, or sorry, the microdosing course, or whether you’re making it up on your own, either one works. Those can be very effective tools from an integration perspective, especially with microdosing ’cause it’s happened over such a long period of time.

0:36:46 CB: Here’s a question that I get asked all the time. “If you’re a microdosing protocol, and you decide macrodose, how much time off from your protocol do you need before you do a macrodose?” So let’s give the example, I’m in the midst of a microdosing protocol. I’m taking 10 micrograms of LSD once every three days. So one day on, two days off, one day on, and I’ve been doing that for a couple weeks. And then I say, for whatever reason, “I wanna have a macrodose experience. I wanna go do that.” What we typically suggest, and there’s no… Again, there’s no research on this, people have… We are not yet at the point where researchers are looking at the calibration between the timing of a macrodose and a microdose. This is really from our own personal experiences, and from the collective knowledge that we’ve taken from people in our community and a lot of people who are extremely well-versed in psychedelics that we talk about, that we talk to all the time.

0:37:46 CB: You should give yourself the safe and easy rule of thumb is to put a week on the end of each end of the macrodose. So if you are gonna take your macrodose on Saturday, stop your microdosing protocol at least the Saturday before and don’t take another microdose until at least the Saturday afterwards. And there’s a couple of reasons for that. One is just avoiding tolerance build-up, right? One of the reasons you follow a protocol, one of the reasons you take days off, is because psychedelics, you can build a tolerance quite quickly to them. That also means that the tolerance washes out quite quickly as well, but you certainly don’t want to go into a macrodose experience and not have the full, not have the psychedelics have their full effects just because you were doing a microdosing protocol. You had microdosed let’s say the day before or something like that. So you want to make sure your tolerance is completely washed out. But you also wanna give your mind time in the lead up to settle, right? And that has to do with mindset. You don’t want to… Microdosing, as subtle as it is, can be destabilizing. It can continue to bring up some challenging material, and you want to give your mind a chance to kind of settle and ground yourself, before you go into a macrodose experience, just to give yourself a higher likelihood, a higher chance of being able to immerse yourself in that, in that macrodose.

0:39:19 CB: And then afterwards, I think that there are some people who, most people after you take the psychedelic, they don’t immediately wanna go do it again. That’s one reason that these substances are not addictive. Michael Pollan talks about this a lot in his new book, How to Change Your Mind. Most people, if you wake up the next day, you’ve macrodosed on Saturday, on a Sunday, you don’t wake up and be like, “I wanna do that immediately again.” It’s a lot, it’s a lot to kind of put yourself through, your mind has had to process a lot. So microdosing, you wanna give yourself some time. And microdosing immediately after restarting your protocol, immediately after a macrodose, not only will increase the odds that you develop tolerance, which is something honestly that you don’t wanna do, but it can also kind of continue a destabilization that you don’t wanna do. You wanna give yourself time to process and integrate the macros experience properly before you dive back into a microdosing protocol. However, having said all that, one of the things that can be very effective in terms of how to use a microdose and a macrodose together is using your microdose as an integration tool.

0:40:32 CB: And one of the things I just referenced Michael Pollan’s book and he has a really interesting interview in the book, where he interviews Mendel Palan who’s a researcher at Imperial College London, and Palan gives a great metaphor in that interview. And he’s talking about neuroplasties, he’s talking about the effects that psychedelics have on our brains. And essentially the metaphor goes like this. If you think about your brain as a snowy hill and your thoughts are like a slide, over time, or sorry, like a sled. Over time, as one sled after another goes downhill, it starts to create grooves, and then each subsequent sled will be drawn into those grooves like a magnet, right? And this is how our brains start to have brain thought patterns. Whether it’s rumination, which is sort of only being able to see things from a certain perspective. That’s limiting because the neural pathways have been trafficked so heavily that that is where our thoughts naturally go from neurologics point of view. And continuing this metaphor, psychedelics are a way to sort of temporarily flatten snow. They make these deeply worn trails disappear, which means that your new sleds can kind of go in any direction that they want.

0:41:51 CB: It’s an open opportunity for them to lay down the pathways. And one of the most powerful ways to continue or just to integrate a macrodose experience, independent of microdosing, is to mentally revisit the insights and the experience that you have in your macrodose. So what that’d kind of look like for you is a daily practice, I hesitate to call it meditation, because meditation is a complicated… A lot of people have a complicated relationship with meditation. So it’s more of a contemplation or mental re-visitation of what you experienced with the macrodose. So that means, let’s say I macrodosed on a Saturday and I go through and I have a lot of insights and different perspectives introduced to me and there’s kind of a lot to process, but there’s a lot that I wanna take out of that and literally integrate into how I’m looking at the world myself and my behaviors. The microdose, the sort of contemplation exercise would be every morning for the next couple, I would say for the next couple of weeks, like two weeks.

0:42:58 CB: Every morning, and if you can do it, every evening, setting aside 10 to 15 minutes to just sit down and close your eyes, be in a quiet space and mentally return to those insights, to that perspective, to the experience, right? And literally, you’re just sort of sending sleds, mental sleds, back down those pathways, those trails that relayed down in your macrodose experience with the goal of trying to ingrain them, trying to take advantage of this neuroplasticity and to really ingrain them deeper into your brain and thought processes. So you should do that independent of microdosing, as part of an integration tool for macrodosing. But microdosing can be a very effective way to continue to facilitate that and to take advantage of the neuroplasticity and the effects that psychedelics have on our brain. So what that could mean is that after you’ve given yourself a week after your microdose to take off and continue to not microdose and let yourself process things.

0:44:00 CB: Starting let’s say the Saturday after the Saturday of my macrodose experience. You can start integrating into your microdosing protocol and into your habits when your microdosing that sort of mental re-visitation process. And the microdose can facilitate an easier time of recalling what the macrodose showed you, and what it brought to your attention. And it can facilitate that neuroplasticity, to continue, sort of, laying down those new pathways. So, if I were to wake up on that Saturday, a week after my macrodose at 6:30 AM because I’m just that on top of my game, I’m waking up at 6:30 AM on Saturday. And I immediately take my microdose, I would wait for, let’s say, an hour, right? By then it usually would have sort of kicked in. It would have been absorbed into my system and then go do my sort of contemplation, my mental rehabilitation process and I’ve personally experienced this and I’ve talked to, to a number of people who have as well, that it can really facilitate this sort of ongoing, this sort of integration, this mental re-visitation of what did I… What were the insights that I gleaned from that macrodose? What, sort of, increased the degree of self-awareness? Like, what is it that I wanna take from that and going into my life in this process of using Microdose, facilitate the integration of the process can be really, really effective.

0:45:27 CB: So, especially if you’re more experienced, you could give it a try. It can be a very effective tool. Okay, so we’re getting close to… I don’t wanna go for too long, but one of the things that we also said that we would go through is some of the top circumstances in which a macrodose might be more effective than a microdosing protocol. And I can’t go too in-depth into this ’cause we’re gonna run out of time, but I’ll touch on them. And certainly, if you guys have any more questions on anything that we’ve talked about, please feel free to email contact thethirdwave.com or sorry thethirdwave.co, contact thethirdwave.co. Note Paul just cringed there for a second. And we’re very responsive to questions, so yeah, please, please send us your emails and anything else that comes up as a result of this.

0:46:18 CB: But one of the things that you should really be aware of is trauma. And a macrodose… This is one circumstance in which a macrodose might be better than a microdosing protocol. With a macrodose, you can control your setting much better ’cause it’s a smaller period of time, you can ideally arrange for a sitter, a professional to be there, someone who can really call strings for you. With a macrodose, you can kind of confront what comes up for you in that setting and then take time to process and integrate that experience. You’ll lose control, almost by definition, you’re taking a psychedelic. So you want to create a safe environment around that, sort of, loss of control. And it’s much easier to do that in a macrodose setting. For people that microdose and they have trauma, and this can be true for generalized anxiety too.

0:47:07 CB: It can continually bring up the source of trauma and anxiety the way that will expose you to it, on a more long-term basis, and making it harder to process, so that heightened emotionality that the microdosing can create, could make it a lot harder for you to… Can impede your daily functioning. So you’re sitting there at work and all of a sudden you start thinking about a source of trauma, something that happened to you as a child, any source of trauma. And that’s not the kind of context that you wanna be processing that. So when you’re microdosing, you’re much more likely to be confronted with this sort of material, outside of the container of proper support that you would want. And you’re almost guaranteed to be microdosing outside of the support of a therapist or someone who’s kind of folding space for you. And that is particularly important with trauma. So trauma is definitely one of the instances in which we would say, we caution heavily if you… That’s something you’re working through and that’s something you’re dealing with, really consider whether or not microdosing protocol is the way to go versus a macrodose. And certainly, if you’re gonna macrodose make sure you’re doing it properly and appropriately. Not stepping into that sort of haphazardly.

0:48:28 CB: The second context… The second way in which a macrodose might be more effective than a microdose is a problem-solving dose. And this is really a dose that’s typically in the range of about 50 to 100 micrograms of LSD, 1 or 2 grams of psilocybin, so kind of just underneath the threshold of what we typically call a macrodose. And with the right preparation and the right approach, a problem-solving dose like that, can really help you have creative breakthroughs and breakthrough sort of mental blocks and corners that you can’t see around in a creative project during your work. And we had a lot of really good information about this in the course and on the website. I can’t go too into right now just because we’re running out of time, but at a lower… Somewhat lower dose than that, but it’s still much closer to macrodose than a microdose. You’re a lot more likely to be able to direct your attention and focus towards certain things. You’re not gonna completely blast off, and just sort of be a passenger on the ride. And by sort of cultivating that experience and having the work that you wanna focus on in front of you, having the music that you like ready, all those sorts of things, you can really facilitate creative breakthroughs that you can certainly, microdosing increases your creative insight.

0:49:45 CB: That’s absolutely true. But not… There’s something to be said about having that sort of problem-solving dose experience. So that’s another circumstance in which a larger dose may be better than just microdosing. And then the last one is occasioning a mystical experience, and this is, I hope not news to anybody. When you’re microdosing, you are not going to have what is known as a mystical experience. Right? There’s a lot of different sorts of ways to characterize a mystical experience, but really, it’s that sense, the common denominator to it is that sense that a greater power, a greater being, is communicating with you. Whether that’s the universe, whether that’s pure love, your soul is communication a fundamental truth to you about the nature of yourself and the universe and just truth in general. It defies expression. It literally cannot be put into words, it is… There’s this term called passivity. I mean, you are literally along for the ride in a mystical experience. It is outside of your control. And really it’s not a bad idea, at that point, to just surrendering to whatever the psychedelic wants to show you.

0:50:57 CB: That is really, that’s not something you’re gonna get from microdose and that’s something that can be very effective for people who are trying to work through um sources of mental illness and certain lists of the research has shown that the degree of what people report, how much the experience correlates with how they measure mystical experience and have a direct correlation with the degree of their covary of the sustation of their symptoms. And it’s not necessarily correlated with dose, that should be said. So it’s not just like, “Hey if I wanna have a more potent and slow experience, I should take 10 grams of psilocybin versus, the typical 2 and 2.5.” There’s not necessarily that direct relationship there. And this actually can often be good for people who are a little bit older. I think they’re starting to find people maybe near forties or above probably likely to have a little bit more psychedelic experience. And your sense of self can like withstand that obliteration that happened in this whole experience which is something that you should just expect if you’re gonna step into that space.

0:52:05 CB: But that’s something that can be very effective, life changing literally life changing for people. People talk about these experiences being in the top five most influential experiences of their life. That’s not something that you’re going to experience in the microdose. So yeah, and then I think the last piece here that we will touch on real quickly and then we’ll get to questions. Why it might be helpful to do a higher dose first before you start a microdosing protocol? And there’s a couple of reasons for that. One is the familiarizing yourself with psychedelics with the psychedelic effects can be really, really helpful, in terms of knowing, pinpointing, “Okay, this is what happening, this is what with the microdoses is bringing to me on a much more subtle level.” So, some of these people microdose they get an increased sense of visual acuity, right? And colors seem like just a little bit brighter and your eyesight seems like a little bit better. With a macro dose there’s often times where, you’re looking at your hand and you’re looking at the light coming through the window and, your vision is just completely different. And, its capacity has expanded far beyond what you would typically experience.

0:53:17 CB: Like having that experience of familiarizing yourself with what the effects of the psychedelics can help you then pinpoint and understand, “Okay this is happening on a much more subtle level with the microdose.” Also, the psychological effects too like getting yourself becoming familiar with that sort of destabilization and accepting that and opening up to it and seeing it as opportunity rather than something that’s scary. That can really help you when the microdose might start to have some of that destabilizing fact. It might start to challenge you with some of the thoughts that come up. And if you’ve experienced that in a macrodose setting you’re much more likely to have that be able to sort of embody that intention that we talked about and that mindset of just accepting what comes up and being able to work with it. And then, people talk about… Yeah, I was gonna go into an extended metaphor there but I don’t think we have time to go into it. I think you guys get the point and now we can talk about it in the Q&A.

0:54:17 CB: So yeah, let’s get some questions here. And take some of you guys’s, go through some of what you guys wanna know. Before I go into this, thank you for everybody for being here and sharing your time and your evenings with us. As kind of a thank you for being here, and just as an opportunity for us to, to try and expand the work and what we’re doing as much as possible. We’re in the process of converting to a non-profit, which all I and the team are extremely excited about. We’re registered in the state of Delaware, and we’re working towards a 501C3 designation. We’re starting the fund raising process now. So that’s a really exciting time for us as an organization to make that conversion and then really be able to have the organizational infrastructure and the funding to facilitate our goal, which is to change the cultural conversation on psychedelics on a wider scale. So that means conducting research, which we already have a lot of that underway into the effects of microdosing providing more educational resources on a bigger scale, and really helping facilitate the growth of communities all around the world, both online and in person with more local psychedelics societies.

0:55:40 CB: So in the meantime, as we do that, really the way that we’re supported is through your guys’s donations on Patreon, or through, the use of what we offer on the website. So we have the microdosing course you guys are probably aware of that. You can find that The Third wave. But one of the other ways that we have really worked hard to be able to facilitate your guys’s growth and expansion in this realm is to offer consulting calls. And that’s been an amazing experience for me to be able to work in this capacity with dozens of you guys there. Paul started out doing them and I learned a lot from watching him do it. And then I started doing these with our community, you know earlier this year and its really been incredible. And it’s honestly one of the most, it’s the most meaningful part of my professional life right now. So, it’s been a great opportunity to work with everybody in that regard, and really what this is about, is answering your questions in a very finite sort of targeted period of time and helping you understand, “Okay, how can I optimize my microdosing protocol? What do I need to do in order to get the best results out of this?”

0:56:51 CB: And what we’re doing today, what we’re offering is that usually a call is one session for a $127 for half hour. We’re offering a two for one, right? So if you purchase a microdosing consulting call today you’ll get two sessions instead of one. So, pretty much 50% off and I’m very excited about this because it will give more of an opportunity to work with everybody over, kind of a more, a longer period of time and have that sort of initial consultation. But also be able to do more follow up and kind of work with everybody, you know check back in on progress in a greater degree and kind of move through whatever comes up in terms of challenges in that regard. So, if you guys wanna do that, I think you can see the link on the screen but, thirdwave.co/product/microdosing-consulting-call. I think Paul can throw the link into the chat. And yeah, it’s a great opportunity to learn a lot about microdosing in a really sort of targeted way and to optimize your protocol. So, very much supportive of that. That offer is gonna be available for the next 24 hours. So if you guys purchase now or if you are watching the recording, if you purchase before, let’s see, that would be Tuesday night New York time at 8:30 PM, we’ll give you the two for one deal there.

0:58:13 CB: And that money goes towards us continuing this conversion to a non-profit, building on our team, we have a really great team right now. People who are distributed around the world. Everybody has made sacrifices to work with their way, then make this work and I think that will continue to be the case even when we convert to a non-profit. But your support in this regard, is what funds our team and what keeps us going. So thank you for everybody who’s done that so far and I hope to be able to work with some of you guys one on one here and in the near future. Alright, So, enough of that. Let’s go to the questions. Alright so, let’s see, you got some… “Is there a way to make that measurement?”

0:59:01 CB: If you guys have questions, feel free to… Questions that haven’t been addressed, feel free to drop them in here. I’m just gonna scan them through the chat. I see, some of you guys are connecting. That’s awesome with Mash. Great having you Mash. Okay, Howard. Question, “I’m 67. I’ve gone through two microdosing periods recently. Anything someone my age needs, especially to consider before doing a macrodose?” That’s a good question Howard. One thing is in terms of people who are a little bit older tend to be taking medications are more likely to to be taking medications. So there can be some drug interactions between psychedelics and medications. There is information on Jim Fadiman’s website that speaks to people’s drug interactions that they’ve reported in terms of the survey research that he’s done. That’s really more about microdosing but it can give you a little bit of insight into whether or not people have had challenging or problematic drug interactions.

1:00:07 CB: But that is something that you should be be aware of, especially if you have microdosed and been on medication, be aware of how… What your microdose is and don’t, if your microdose is 10 micrograms, don’t go in and take 300 micrograms of acid, right? Try to keep it in that range, in the range of 10 times what your microdose is. And the reason I bring that up is because some medications can potentially be the effect of the psychedelic and make it stronger. So you wanna make sure you don’t dive in too deep into the macrodose. Psychedelics can also be, they can increase your heart rate. So if you have any sort of issues from a cardiovascular standpoint, that’s something to be aware of. And I would definitely avoid taking stimulants or anything like that, prior to the macrodose. And if you do have heart condition, talk to your doctor, if you can. Better safe than sorry, around that. But those would be the two things up that would come up first for me.

1:01:12 CB: So, Adam, 37-year old. Wondering what the uphold frequency for microdose on mushrooms and LSD as I think mine may be off base and asking this as a majority level. That’s okay Adam, there’s a lot of different ways you can microdose but the basic way we’ll call it the Fadiman Protocol is to take one day on two days off, one day on. So, microdose on Monday, you take Tuesday and Wednesday off. microdose again on Thursday. That’s called the James Fadiman Protocol. Let’s see what else. Okay, alright so guys if you have more questions, drop them in, let’s see. Okay Steve. I have been microdosing psilocybin should I pause that to do a first macrodose of LSD. Yeah, Steve I think you should. And just in the same way that I talk about the substance doesn’t necessarily matter but in terms of giving yourself a week before and a week after is a good rule of thumb. Give yourself that space to both have tolerance, watch out and kind of stabilize yourself mentally before you go into the macrodose experience.

1:02:26 CB: And then also afterwards, to process and do some integration before you start up the microdosing protocol again. So yeah, I would give yourself that break. Okay, Larry. I have GERD Gastroesophageal reflux. And even the microdose gives me a stomachache. Any ideas on how to mitigate that? That’s interesting Larry. I think that some people have gastrointestinal… I’ve heard of that coming up with microdosing, before, especially with psilocybin. If you are… Some people find it like playing with taking it on a full stomach or an empty stomach can help with that regard. I’ve also heard people taking it, especially, with psilocybin mushrooms ginger tea like ginger tea prior to ingesting the dose back and up a good bit. But if you send us an email, we can look into that a little bit more. I don’t… Especially when it comes to specifically GERD, I don’t know specifically about that. Anna says, “I have sometimes have cramps on microdosing not macro. Any way to avoid that?”

1:03:31 CB: That’s interesting. It could be a by-product of just how hydrated you are. And sometimes people, especially when you get in that flow state, and you’re kind of losing, you’re really drawing what you’re doing. You forget to drink water, literally. So that could be a part of it. Everybody’s physiology reacts differently to psychedelics so I don’t think I have any experience. Paul if you know anything about cramps. Feel free to drop it in there. Sorry I don’t have a better answer than that Anna. And certainly if it gets to be strong, I would try bringing the dose down and seeing if that affects the severity of the cramps. Let’s see, okay.

1:04:22 CB: Let’s see… Say what level of macrodosing for working through creative blocks. Mark, that’s a great question. I would say that the problem solving dose, the creative dose, is typically in the range of 50-100 mics of LSD, or 1 to 2 grams of psilocybin. If the macrodose at the upper beginning threshold of a macrodose, is usually around 100 mics or two grams. The problem-solving dose is going to be between half that and up to that depending on your tolerance. And again, that gives you more of an ability to control your attention. You’re not gonna blast off, you’re not gonna lose your ability to direct your focus, but it will definitely facilitate parts of your brain that typically would not speak to one another to speak to one another. Let’s just say it that way. So, let’s see, what else? I have some new ones coming up. Dave, “Has anyone else noticed that one PLC has a wonderful tendency to make your bowel movements much more relaxed and comfortable?” I have actually experienced… And this might have to do with this sort of anti-inflammatory effect, and we’re still understanding a lot about how psychedelics affect us.

1:05:45 CB: The 5H2A serotonin receptor system, is not only in your brain, which psychedelics affect, are not only in your brain but also primarily in your gut. So there’s certainly a correlation there. I’ve experienced that too, Dave. I’ve experienced that, like, without giving away too much information here. Nobody wants to know about this, but being a little bit more regular and just my body generally feeling better. So yeah, I’ve experienced that. Not with one PLC, but with LSD and psilocybin. Okay. Patrick, “You mentioned a week after microdosing, before integrating a microdose routine, while also integrating the two-week contemplation after macro dose experience. Does this have to do with both the tolerance as well as the other factors?” Yes, Patrick, it does. So that week after your macrodose experience has to do with avoiding tolerance build-up, but then yes, also other factors, the psychological factors.

1:06:37 CB: The letting your mind settle that integration aspect to it. And again, that mental re-visitation process that I went into, that’s something that you can start doing immediately the day after your macrodose. So, setting aside 10 to 15 minutes, mentally going back to what are the insights that you gleaned. What do you wanna take out of that experience? Sending those sleds down the same neural pathways, down that same part of that snowy hill over and over. And then after about a week of doing that, integrate the microdose into your experience of doing that, so layering that on top. Alright maybe one more question. Nancy, “How do you find a therapist that will take you through an LSD macro?” This is one of the most frustrating parts about this space right now Nancy, is that in our view, you should be able to walk into a clinic or a profession setting, sit down with a trained professional, and have a microdose experience and work through a lot of what you need to work through. Right now that’s not the case.

1:07:39 CB: We can certainly provide the resources. You could go to maps, if you just Google Maps, M-A-P-S integration psychedelic, you’ll come up with lists of integrative therapists who will do both remote work. So if you’re somewhere, not a major city, there are therapists that will do… Integrated therapist that will work with you on a remote basis, but then also they have lists by geography so you can hopefully find a professional in your area. Those are not people who are going to sit with you and guide you through a trip. Those are people that are going to help you work through whatever experience you have and they specialize in integrating, and working through, and working with psychedelics. Not in person, but if you’re using psychedelics they specialize in helping you work through the material that comes up. Outside of that, unfortunately, a lot of people who do this work are doing it underground and they’re not people who are publicly putting themselves out there. So, I would really suggest trying to work with an integrative therapist at least to begin with, before you delve into a macrodose. Okay, I think that we’ve answered, Chuckie, you said, “Does Gary stop or slow down a dose?” I don’t know. [chuckle] I don’t know. And, Brian, thank you for the compliments, I really appreciate that. Thank you guys, everybody, for being here. Again, want to put the coaching offer back on the radar.

1:09:20 CB: Just before we leave, I’d love to work with anybody on an in-person, one-on-one basis. It’s really an effective way to optimize your protocol and learn how to do this in a way that’s appropriate for you. And then, check out the microdosing course too. If you want something that’s really a depth and you wanna go through it your own time pace go to the website, check out the microdosing course. Paul and I and the rest of our team poured our hearts and souls into that. So the two-for-one offer for the microdosing consulting call is available for the next 24 hours. So you a purchase one call, and you get to two for money. And then anything else if you guys have questions, concerns about anything, please feel free to email us, contact at thethirdwve.co, or you can email me directly, [email protected] Love to talk with you guys some more and answer more of your questions. Thank you for being here with us this evening and we’re looking forward to the next one. Thanks everybody.

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