The Psychedelic Ecosystem: Consciousness, Community, and Connection

Podcast Highlights

• Humility as a fundamental value.
• Power animals, spirit animals, and shamanic guides.
• How plant medicine helped Tim discover his life’s purpose.
• Tim and Paul’s experience quarantining together at the beginning of COVID-19.
• 1heart’s upcoming retreats in Costa Rica.
• How to avoid getting sucked into the matrix.
• The many ways of cultivating community.
• What a green, regenerative future might look like.
• Why Tim’s tattoos help him focus on what’s important.
• The future of Third Wave and the psychedelic space at large.
• The changing ecosystem of psychedelics.
• The difference between “natural” and “normal”.
• Is the psychedelic industry moving too fast?

Show Links

1. Largest known prime number
2. Tim’s article on finding email addresses
3. 1heart
4. Esalen Institute
5. The Listening Society: A Metamodern Guide to Politics, by Hanzi Freinacht
6. TINT
7. Third Wave podcast with James Fadiman, Ph.D
8. Third Wave podcast with Ian-Michael Hébert

Podcast Transcript

0:00:00.1 Paul Austin: Today's podcast is with Tim Sae Koo. Tim is a close friend, an investor in Third Wave. A former founder himself who exited in 2018, selling Tint, and a partner at 1heart Retreats who we've spoken about in our emails and newsletters in the past.

[music]

0:00:16.1 PA: Welcome to the Third Wave Podcast, I'm your host, Paul Austin, here to bring you cutting-edge interviews with leading scientists, entrepreneurs and medical professionals who are exploring how we can integrate psychedelics in an intentional and responsible way for both healing and transformation. It is my honor and privilege to bring you these episodes as you get deeper and deeper into why these medicines are so critical to the future of humanity. So let's go, and let's see what we can explore and learn together in this incredibly important time.

0:00:55.6 PA: Hey listeners, just wanna let you know that we've opened up our next microdosing experience, it's Third Wave's flagship six-week program that helps guide you through an intentional microdosing protocol to help you cultivate what we call the skill of microdosing, how you work with microdosing to heal, for performance, for greater clarity and cognition and energy. We have two coaches who will guide you through that, I will also be part of that.

0:01:21.0 PA: We also have a couple of master classes, one with a yoga instructor, who's gonna teach about microdosing yoga, she also has her PhD in neuroscience, Tara Zinnamon, so yoga microdosing. We will also have a class on optimal wellness and performance from a medical doctor and finally, we'll have a breathwork breakthrough ceremony.

0:01:40.0 PA: So that's a six-week course, breathwork, four weeks of integration with microdosing. We just have a few spots left, if you're interested in joining, go to Third Wave's homepage, click on Microdosing Experience. Or you can just reach out on social to us, and we're happy to help get you enrolled. Thanks so much.

0:02:00.5 PA: And this podcast is sponsored by Mindbloom. Legal psychedelic medicine is here, and it's available through Mindbloom. Mindbloom helps you transform your life with safe, science-backed psychedelic therapy. If you're looking for your depression or anxiety breakthrough, Mindbloom provides a fully-guided and clinician-monitored experience tailored just for you. Some clients see results as soon as 24 hours after their first session. Mindbloom is in fact our first official partner here at Third Wave and a company and organization that we support.

0:02:33.0 PA: In fact, I'm going to start my own Mindbloom experience in the coming weeks, and will write about my experience going through Ketamine therapy to address both Cannabis addiction and general anxiety, the Cannabis was to cover up the anxiety, and I can't wait to share my own transformation with you.

0:03:01.8 PA: Hey listeners, as always I'm Paul Austin, back with the next edition of Third Wave's Podcast. Today's interview is with a good friend of mine, Tim Sae Koo. Tim and I met about two and a half years ago in mid-2018, at a retreat in Boulder Creek, which is just outside San Francisco. Tim was in an event that we did in San Francisco towards the end of 2018, so he's been on the podcast before as part of this live event that we did in San Francisco.

0:03:36.7 PA: And since then I went on a 1heart retreat, where Tim is a partner, and these are Ayahuasca retreats for creatives and founders and entrepreneurs. And then we lived together at the beginning of quarantine in Miami, and we got to know each other quite well at that point in time. And so we had a gap in the podcast, and so I just reached out to Tim and was like, "Hey, what would it be like if we just sat down and recorded for like an hour, and just flowy, easy going, talk about whatever. Anything and everything is on the table."

0:04:04.9 PA: This is definitely one of the more intimate conversations I've had on the podcast, because Tim and I know each other so well, so there's a lot of fun that we had and sort of kicking around. We also recorded a video of this, if you wanna check that out, it'll be on YouTube. We talked about a lot of stuff, we talked about how we got to know one another.

0:04:22.3 PA: We talked about Tim's involvement with 1heart, we talked about our experience in living together at the beginning of quarantine and what shifts and changes that we noticed both externally and also within ourselves. We discussed the current state of the third wave of psychedelics and what's happening there, and a wide array and a range of many other things.

0:04:44.3 PA: Tim is a great friend, he's also an exited founder, he built and sold a software company, and from 2011 until 2018. And after exiting that joined 1heart Retreats and has been a partner at 1heart ever since then. So he's very immersed in the psychedelics space. He's also an investor with Third Wave and has informally advised both myself and the team on various things, so it's been great to have him along for this entire journey, and we're super stoked to publish this podcast together. Without further ado, I bring you Tim Sae Koo.

0:05:26.1 PA: We're off to a good start, I would say, Tim. TSK. When we talk about your future DJ name, I can't help it. You have such great initials.

0:05:36.8 Tim Sae Koo: Running with the test BDE right now.

0:05:40.2 PA: Tell us more about BDE, Tim?

0:05:41.9 TK: All I can tell you about BDE, is silent power.

0:05:46.3 PA: That's it?

0:05:47.6 TK: That's all I can actually say. There's a little game I'm playing with myself to see if it'll actually spark enough curiosity to lean into what BDE stands for, by not explaining what BDE is.

0:06:03.4 PA: You can't be explicit about BDE.

0:06:07.4 TK: Exactly, exactly. It has to be very, from a humbling place.

0:06:12.3 PA: Tell us about humility, Tim. What's humility?

0:06:15.6 TK: Humility? So I actually have a... What comes up is actually my tattoo on my right forearm, and it's... Sorry, no, my left bicep actually, and it says "humble" on here.

0:06:28.8 PA: Oh, it does. I had never noticed that.

0:06:30.7 TK: It says "humble".

0:06:31.7 PA: It's very humble to put "humble" on your inner forearm I think.

0:06:35.9 TK: That one, I was trying to portray and personify humble, but I couldn't figure out what that is, and so it just became the word. But the other sign is the universal sign of empathy, and so the tattoo is all about staying humble and practice empathy. There's something here with humility that I've always believed in deep, deep, deep.

0:07:00.1 TK: And because any tattoo I get, it has a very core value attached to what I'm devoting my life to. And so humbleness, synonymous in my perspective to humility, I'm sure there's ways to dive deeper into that, is an absolute core fundamental value of my life.

0:07:19.6 PA: Thank you for sharing that.

0:07:21.3 TK: You're welcome.

0:07:22.5 PA: Tell us about your first ever acid trip?

0:07:26.3 TK: This is a good one. I love this question. Thank you for asking. My first ever acid trip.

0:07:34.0 PA: Yeah, your first ever acid trip.

0:07:36.7 TK: Coachella, 2014.

0:07:38.7 PA: Ooh, Coachella.

0:07:40.3 TK: This is when I'm 23 years old then. Phase in my life where I had just started my first company. I was two, three years in, kind of getting the grooves going, feeling good, feeling confident. In this stage of my life I've sort of made it to a milestone where I can make my parents proud, I can make myself proud, and just feeling good about that. So I'm at that stage in my life, I think that's important to understand about me, where I was, when I took my first LSD trip.

0:08:12.9 TK: And I had two good friends, and one of them had offered me a tab and I was like, "What is this, what's this all about?" He just explains like, "You're gonna go in for a trip and it's really hard to explain, [chuckle] and we'll see what happens." I remember taking it and it slowly kicked in, and what I knew about kicking in was looking up at the sky and seeing clouds form into different objects for the first time ever in my life.

0:08:52.2 TK: I had always heard about it but I'd never actually seen that before. And so when I saw the cloud start to morph into dinosaurs and animals...

0:09:00.6 PA: You had dinosaurs?

0:09:00.7 TK: I had dinosaurs.

0:09:00.8 PA: Interesting.

0:09:00.9 TK: I had a T-Rex.

0:09:01.5 PA: That's quite violent.

0:09:06.0 TK: My first cloud hallucination, yeah. On LSD, yeah.

0:09:11.7 PA: Oh a T-rex. Would you say the T-Rex was your spirit animal for a period of time?

0:09:16.2 TK: I don't know, I don't know. I've fallen into the spirit animal of owl, and that's a great story to talk about...

0:09:21.4 PA: Well, and now your new spirit animal's a whale. We were talking about this last night.

0:09:24.1 TK: No, power animal. There's a difference.

0:09:24.7 PA: Oh, sorry, there's a difference. I'm learning this.

0:09:29.2 TK: Power animals are your guides in what they call the "lower worlds".

0:09:34.2 PA: Like the lower chakras?

0:09:35.7 TK: No, the lower worlds, so there's a lower world journey and upper world journey in the shamanic world, that I've been taking classes on. So that's my power animal, it's my guide.

0:09:45.3 PA: The whale?

0:09:45.9 TK: The whale.

0:09:48.6 PA: Blue whale, Orca, Humpback?

0:09:49.9 TK: No, no, not specific... More of a blue whale, I would say. More of a blue whale.

0:09:51.9 PA: Blue whale. So very big, yeah. Super big.

0:09:55.5 TK: Big. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I would go...

0:09:55.6 PA: That's the BDE in... [chuckle] It's the BDE.

0:10:00.8 TK: That's the BDE. Maybe there's a consistency there, I love it.

0:10:02.8 PA: But then, an owl is so...

0:10:05.1 TK: My spirit animal.

0:10:06.2 PA: Literally opposite of that. It's one of the tiniest animals that you could choose.

0:10:11.8 TK: Maybe there's some beautiful irony in that, that I'm sure I can find a lesson on.

[chuckle]

0:10:19.8 TK: I haven't delved in that deep, but you've unlocked a door of understanding that.

0:10:24.9 PA: As part of your coaching services, maybe you could offer people insight into their power animals and spirit animals.

0:10:33.6 TK: Actually, there's a journey work called Power Animal Retrieval, which you...

0:10:37.6 PA: You can retrieve power animals now?

0:10:40.2 TK: I wouldn't say I'm there.

0:10:41.7 PA: I knew about soul retrieval. This is a whole another level.

0:10:47.9 TK: I'm gonna just say I'm learning it, I'm no master about it, but there's a shamanic journeying about power animal retrieval, so that I would essentially hit a shamanic drum and then go into a trance to try to journey into the lower world and then ask questions to then retrieve your power animal. And then I would give it to you by blowing it into your heart and blowing into the back of your neck, and rattling four times.

0:11:14.1 PA: Why four times?

0:11:15.5 TK: I haven't understood that part yet, but that was what my partner and I, dealer, were basically asking.

0:11:22.8 PA: Four. You know, I like the number seven.

0:11:26.0 TK: Why?

0:11:27.2 PA: The four directions.

0:11:29.8 TK: The four directions. Or times. Oh yes, yes, yes.

0:11:33.9 PA: Which number is more perfect, three or seven? 'Cause both have a very sort of, seven is a...

0:11:44.9 TK: I first was gonna say three, and then my mind went to seven because...

0:11:48.8 PA: I think the Trinity, the Trinity embodies perfection...

0:11:51.3 TK: Trinity. We've talked about that before, yeah.

0:11:53.7 PA: And when you write a sentence, it's this, this and this.

0:11:57.2 TK: Correct.

0:12:00.4 PA: And threes are very...

0:12:01.1 TK: It's complete. It feels complete.

0:12:02.2 PA: Yeah, it feels complete.

0:12:03.2 TK: Seven though, I would say my religious Christian background kicks in, and be like seven, like seven days of creation and getting to that perfection at the end, so seven feels really complete. That's why.

0:12:14.0 PA: Yeah. You know which number doesn't feel complete?

0:12:16.4 TK: Which one?

0:12:17.8 PA: 19.

0:12:19.3 TK: Yeah, it's one of those numbers that you can't divide by anything, it's all by itself.

0:12:23.6 PA: It's a prime... You're just like, "Oh," you're hanging out and 19, you're like...

0:12:26.7 TK: 19 just feels incomplete to 20.

0:12:29.1 PA: Can I just get to 20? 29 feels better than 19.

0:12:31.5 TK: Maybe they're about the same to me. They're both prime numbers, they're alone in their own land.

0:12:38.2 PA: Isolated.

0:12:39.0 TK: Isolated.

0:12:41.4 PA: But also very self-reliant, very independent. They gotta hold their own. That's how you feel when you're 19 and 29.

0:12:51.1 TK: It's true.

0:12:51.6 PA: Those are both the road the big transition year periods for folks.

0:12:55.9 TK: Those prime numbers have BDE as well.

0:12:58.8 PA: Oh, major BDE. Yeah, major BDE. What's the highest prime number? Do you know? You don't know?

0:13:09.9 TK: I'm Asian, and I just I feel really... I didn't live up to standards there.

[chuckle]

0:13:15.7 PA: I just don't. We'll have to look that one up. We'll include it in the show notes. Yeah, we'll include it in the show notes. Okay, so a little background. So we had you on the podcast in 2018. We did an event in San Francisco with our friend Tiffany Liu, and our other friend, Michael Costuros. Hi Michael.

0:13:36.2 TK: I miss them. Hello guys, if you're listening.

0:13:37.9 PA: They're probably listening. And we met at a retreat. I remember I met you at the retreat and instantly I recognized you because you had posted an article of some sort about how to find people's email addresses through LinkedIn, something like that.

[chuckle]

0:13:57.4 TK: The title was, and this is so optimized to the tee, by the way, which I fucking love if that's how we... That was the article. Was, "How to find any email address under two minutes." I specifically titled that way, you'll be searched so well, and get so much traffic. And it wasn't me trying to like, show a hack to the world and be like, "This is my personal brand. Follow me." No, it was literally to drive traffic into our company and our software company's website, to just figure out how to acquire customers.

0:14:31.3 PA: That's it.

0:14:32.3 TK: So I'm super happy that that was the article. That was the connecting point. That was the first touch point of us.

0:14:37.2 PA: And now I have acquired you as a customer. It's great.

0:14:41.4 TK: You have.

0:14:42.8 PA: You got me first, though. You got me first.

0:14:43.9 TK: It's mutual.

0:14:44.3 PA: So we met at a retreat in Boulder Creek with our friend Toby. And had such a wonderful time, three nights of... I think it was two nights maybe.

0:14:56.3 TK: No, Entrepredelics, right?

0:14:56.4 PA: Is that the awful name that he had?

[chuckle]

0:15:01.9 PA: Toby, we go to change that.

0:15:03.4 TK: Entrepredelics, Entrepredelics, something like that.

0:15:08.5 PA: But a meeting of minds of sorts. We had some incredible folks there.

0:15:11.2 TK: You know, that was my first Ketamine experience too.

0:15:13.2 PA: Really?

0:15:13.9 TK: Yeah.

0:15:14.2 PA: That was a great playlist.

0:15:15.5 TK: With you guys.

0:15:16.3 PA: Michael put together a good playlist.

0:15:16.3 TK: That's a special moment.

0:15:17.8 PA: Yeah, it was. And then we hung out. You were in New York in September of that year, we hung out. I remember after Burning Man... I don't think I saw you at Burning Man?

0:15:27.2 TK: No.

0:15:27.8 PA: And then we had you in this event. We talked about the future of business and psychedelics, and it was a well attended event. The place in San Francisco, the YMCA?

0:15:37.2 TK: Somewhere up there. Yeah.

0:15:39.2 PA: It had a fantastic event, right? It went really well. And then we went on a retreat, we went on the 1heart retreat. That was a little more than two years ago. We really get a chance to know each other and bond and connect.

0:15:47.4 TK: I really feel like when you sit in ceremony with people, they're gonna be forever special. It's just, it's one of those things, it's... There's very little that tops it. There's very little that tops it.

0:15:58.7 PA: Yeah, you just see a part of them. But there was also a lot of connections specifically that happened there that's still very existent, in both of our lives today. Especially yours, because you're still running retreats there. And then you came on as an investor for Third Wave, and you supported us, which has been incredible.

0:16:17.3 PA: And have been a great advisor and mentor. And now we're basically looking at how do we continue to level that up. So, welcome back to the podcast. It's good to have.

0:16:30.9 TK: That's is great.

0:16:32.0 PA: Tell us about 1heart, and Ayahuasca, the community that you've helped to generate. The people that you've met, how your life has shifted and changed since then. What is that story?

0:16:49.9 TK: It's been pure magic. That's what it's been for me. To answer your question, it, it all started in my second ceremony ever, with the grandmother medicine, Ayahuasca. I was just about to sell my company, I was four months away from selling my company. And I was just like so relieved but also so nervous of what would be next for me. Because my identity was so attached to that company. You know? I bootstrapped that for about almost seven years at that time.

0:17:27.9 TK: So I was like, "Wow, like I got some shit to work on here. My identity is so attached here." So my intention going into the next, to these next two ceremonies, the second one and third one that I did, was a lot about like, "What is my true service to this world in this lifetime?"And just being so genuinely curious about that, and really trying to come from a humble place of like, "I'm going to ask a greater power for guidance on what it heard, he/they believe I should devote my energy to. Just give me some give me some advice, some considerations."

0:18:10.2 TK: Fast forward, I go into this journey and I ask like, "How can I best manifest my purpose of service?" And I ask for about probably two, three hours into and it just kept asking that question. It's coming from such a place of like, again, on my knees, kind of actually physically on my knees, my forehead on the floor, really trying to ask, "How do I best manifest my purpose of service?"

0:18:36.7 TK: And I was all of a sudden shown, I was walking on the mountains, there was tall white plains, kind of like grass. Behind was the ocean. I was so shocked because this was my first time I ever had a vision in my life. I don't know. There's so many ways to describe what a vision is, but I was always a skeptic of these things. So to have that kind of vision be so vivid for me, I was like, "I gotta take notice. This is such a stark contrast to everything I'm so used to."

0:19:17.0 TK: So I asked, "What am I doing on this land," and what I heard back was, "You're going to help create a campus where alternative healing modality practitioners would come, share their best craft, and you're gonna attract people who just really need this kind of work, whatever that may be." And I was like, "Woah, woah, woah."

0:19:43.2 TK: I actually literally had a conversation. I was like, "I'm a software techy. I figured that out, I understand that game now. Shouldn't I just be doing that over and over?" And I was like, "Oh, wait, that's the matrix." [chuckle] It was this moment of like, "Holy shit, you're telling me I got to really make a transition in my life. If you really wanna take on this purpose of service, here's your visualization, vision of this, how serious are you?"

0:20:14.6 TK: And I had this conversation back and forth, and I was like, "Okay, I hear it. I see it. Thank you. I asked for it, I got it." And I said part of my integration process after that journey would be just talk to people. I don't know how I'm gonna make a campus, or a center. I don't even know where this is. So I was like, "I'm gonna talk to people and just say, who should I talk to, who should I meet?"

0:20:39.7 TK: One of my good friends, Andrew, who actually was the first person who introduced me to this medicine, introduced me to these two guys named Barry and Brandon, who are the co-founders of 1heart. And I got to know them, and just telling them, "I had this vision, and I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but here it is. I'm just gonna toss it out there and see what happens." And they're like, "Funny you say that. Our first iteration of what we're trying to do is these journeys and retreats so we can build a community, so we have the amount of people that can then help us fund a retreat center, a physical space."

0:21:16.5 TK: In that moment I was like, "Holy shit, I know what alignment feels like when I've had such a powerful experience just five months ago with my second Ayahuasca experience like show me this vision." Now, feeling that and feeling that memory come into alignment, I was like, "Woah, these guys may be the people I'm supposed to be working with."

0:21:37.3 TK: It just shook me, because I was like, "Holy shit, this is what guidance can feel like from a connection to a greater power." And I was like, "Okay. I'll join your next retreat." And that's when we went together. Such a special memory.

0:21:54.4 PA: Oh, journey two.

0:21:54.5 TK: Journey two.

0:21:55.6 PA: That was your first retreat too.

0:21:56.8 TK: Too, yeah, January 2019. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:22:00.9 PA: That was a special retreat.

0:22:01.0 TK: Super special, yeah. And what I took away from that experience, that retreat we did together, I was like, "Wow, not only can we explore this medicine in a safe way, not only a powerful healing way, but also have a community that speak this language of we're trying to do the inner work, we're trying to figure out shit, and for the purpose of a greater humanity." And not just people who talk about it, but who actually do it too. You know what I mean? And I was like, "Woah, that combination is powerful."

0:22:38.9 TK: And I just fell in love with the mission from there. All I said was, "Guys... " To the guys, Barry and Brandon [unclear speech], I was like, "You don't really need to figure out my role, or anything like that, I just... I'm here to help you guys out now. For real, I'll volunteer my time just to keep showing you how serious I'm about this."

0:23:00.6 TK: I took on their integration program. I started creating an elevation group leader program for them. Just all these little programs that made the whole process even safer and even more transformational for the retreat. Started to keep falling deeper and deeper in love with the alignment of what I was shown just now two... Three years ago now. It was March... April of 2018 that I was first receiving this vision. So that's how I got involved with 1heart, and just this beautiful unfolding of a surrendered journey getting involved with them.

0:23:36.1 PA: And then COVID hit. So what we haven't talked about yet is Tim and I lived together during quarantine for...

[chuckle]

0:23:42.1 TK: We quarantined together.

0:23:43.9 PA: For six... I think it was six to eight weeks, six to seven weeks. When did you leave, early May?

0:23:48.1 TK: Early May, to Sedona.

0:23:49.5 PA: Yeah, it's about six... I think seven weeks. And we... At the, especially the beginning of quarantine, went for a lot of walks, what we would call our... [chuckle] Do we say it?

0:24:04.8 TK: Go for it. It's real.

0:24:07.2 PA: Our "business and bitches" conversations. [chuckle]

0:24:10.4 TK: And I gotta qualify just by saying the fact that we use the word "bitches", we totally understand that...

0:24:16.0 PA: This is probably offensive.

0:24:17.4 TK: Very offensive, and we don't wanna be that way. It's just, it was a little gag opportunity for us to bond as brothers. That's what it really was.

0:24:25.0 PA: Totally, yeah. And had some really enlightening conversations. There were, Third Way was going through some interesting transitions at that point, and you offered great guidance and counsel and connections, and were very helpful just with, yeah, all that. And then started to see under the hood a little bit more and getting your... For a good chunk of that time we were pretty involved in helping to consult. You were going through quite a bit with 1heart, 'cause you had to stop all the retreats.

0:24:54.1 TK: Exactly.

0:24:54.3 PA: That was a lot. There was a lot happening there. So I think the six weeks we spent together felt like a lot more than that. So we've gotten to know each other pretty well. I've enjoyed that.

0:25:04.7 TK: Time was very much stretched.

0:25:05.2 PA: And now we've been in Miami about a year, and we're both leaving soon. What's your take on Miami? It's interesting now that so many people are moving here from New York and from the West Coast, and it's really becoming quite the spot.

0:25:22.8 TK: It's the hot spot now.

0:25:26.9 PA: I think we trail blazed enough.

0:25:28.7 TK: Yeah, dude, I've been noticing that. A lot of conversations when people are calling in from Zoom, like, "Where are you calling from?" "I'm from Miami." They're like, "Oh, you went there?" And I'm like, "No, I came here before everyone came here." And feeling that opportunity to be like, "Yeah, we trail-blazed that."

0:25:43.8 PA: Oh, I was very intentional about this.

0:25:45.7 TK: You actually did call it.

0:25:47.4 PA: I called it 100%. For sure, I'm like, "I see where this is going."

[chuckle]

0:25:53.9 PA: I moved up all my shit within 48 hours in Oakland and flew out here, and booked a hotel for three nights. I booked the tickets Friday night, rented a Tesla on Saturday, booked all the stuff, moved it to our friend Dina's place in the hay, and then Sunday morning, flew to Miami. 'Cause my friend, Dina was like, "Dude they're gonna put a... "

0:26:15.3 TK: Shut down.

0:26:15.6 PA: "They're gonna shut down. If you wanna get out, get out now."

[overlapping conversation]

0:26:18.6 PA: And never regretted it once. I've liked Miami... It has its glitzy superficial, sort of overly bro-ish crowd, but... Well, too much alcohol. But it's nice weather and the women are really cute. I never knew there were fake butts 'til I moved to Miami. I didn't know fake butts were a thing. Then I just kept hearing about... I'm like, "Oh, okay. I can see that now. Yeah, I can see."

0:26:52.1 TK: Yeah. What do I think about Miami? Miami, just yesterday, when I was driving you to a meeting with... Together.

0:27:00.4 PA: That was a good meeting that we had yesterday.

0:27:04.9 TK: I was like, "Woah, Miami all of a sudden feels congested again." Just based on my... Like, yo, we had such a unique perspective. We came to Miami right when COVID hit, and so we got to see the complete... We never saw what was pre-COVID Miami. All we ever saw was a new normal in Miami, which was super empty and just chill.

0:27:31.7 TK: And then all of a sudden yesterday, driving with you in mad traffic, I was like, "Whoa. It feels really congested." It was the first time I felt the news... When you read the news article, "Everyone moves to Miami," that was my first time feeling that now. Yeah, and it's very interesting timing, because both of us are leaving.

0:27:49.5 PA: And you're going to Costa Rica?

0:27:50.9 TK: I'm heading to Costa Rica.

0:27:51.9 PA: 'Cause you're joining a cult. Is that correct?

0:27:53.5 TK: Exactly. But it's not a cult.

0:27:55.3 PA: As assumed.

[chuckle]

0:28:00.4 PA: You're stayin in an Airbnb and...

0:28:00.4 TK: Yeah, 1heart has a couple of retreats coming up in Costa Rica, and so my partner and I thought that it would just be convenient to be down there and host these retreats and explore Costa Rica in between these retreats. And the other bigger opportunity is that... Oh, I never finished the story, is that the anticipation is for the retreat center that 1heart wants to create is in Costa Rica as well.

0:28:23.4 PA: The cult.

0:28:25.0 TK: The cult, exactly. And I was thinking like, "Okay, yeah, it makes sense to start looking at Costa Rica, start setting up a home base. What would it be like? Get to know people." Just do some good, due diligence prep work.

0:28:37.5 PA: It'd be cool to build shit, get your hands dirty.

0:28:39.8 TK: Exactly. And surf.

0:28:41.7 PA: Get out of the computer life. But not completely.

0:28:45.7 TK: It's gonna be a balance. That actually I've thought about as like a... I get to be really intentional with hand work outside, and get shit done inside, computer work. Yeah, I've been noticing that.

0:29:00.1 PA: That's the appeal, in getting out of a city and getting into the mountains. You're just naturally less likely to get as sucked in.

0:29:08.5 TK: Correct.

0:29:09.1 PA: You get pretty sucked into the matrix in cities these days.

0:29:11.6 TK: Two weeks ago, I had the first thought for the first time in two years, 'cause I took a break after I sold my company. I've been taking a break, like legit just chill the fuck out break, for the last two years. And I started cranking into high gear again in January 'cause I was like, "Okay, I'm ready." Two weeks ago, I was like, "Whoa, I feel like I'm in the matrix again, or I've been sucked in to the matrix again," and I'm just so much more wary of that lately.

0:29:33.9 PA: Yeah, it's very prevalent here. It's super prevalent.

0:29:38.3 TK: Yeah, I agree.

0:29:39.3 PA: And that's the appeal. I interviewed Ian-Michael, I think in June of this year about HOLOS and what he's working on with integrative living, integrative holistic living. Ian-Michael led retreats at Esalen. And essentially, how do you take a model like Esalen and help cultivate it in many other communities and many other places?

0:30:00.2 PA: So this is, I think, the vision probably for what you wanna do with 1heart, and what even I wanna do with Third Wave, and I've talked about it from that framework, like, how do you create something that is as powerful of a healing? And sometimes it's just like the energy, the location of Esalen, is phenomenal. Where are those locations in the world? I love this idea of unplugging, of... I think we're both fortunate enough that we've...

0:30:26.3 TK: We can make those calls very quickly...

0:30:28.3 PA: We are very free people. I would say we are probably the most free people.

0:30:32.2 TK: That's a very huge intentional value I have for myself. People always ask, "What do you value?" And I say, "I value freedom," as in just, I can make a choice, within bounds, obviously, and then go for it.

0:30:46.2 PA: Freedom. So there's this book that I read once, The Listening Society. It's by a philosopher who made his name up. It's actually two different people wrote the book and they have this one sort of character that they put forward as the author named Hanzi, who lives in the Swiss Alps. It's an interesting book. When I say the phrase "the listening society", what do you think that means?

0:31:10.2 TK: What immediately emerges is like a 1984 kinda doomsday...

0:31:16.0 PA: Interesting.

0:31:20.3 TK: Yeah, yeah. That's an immediate thing. I think the word "listening society" is just the way that's combined. There's something that's triggering me to think like a 1984-esque.

0:31:31.6 PA: The framework is much less dark than that, thankfully.

0:31:35.3 TK: Okay, okay.

0:31:35.9 PA: Maybe it's a nice play on words, it's bit a devilish of them. But it's essentially how do you create infrastructure, how do you create societal norms, how do you create products and services that help people to listen more?

0:31:52.9 TK: I think listening.

0:31:53.6 PA: Spend more time going inward and spending more time reflecting and spending more time in nature. Many of us, because we have such freedoms, will have the ability to live in some very nice situations and places, and I think in a way contribute to this regenerative vision that we have of the future, where nature is much more integrated into everything. It's sort of post-industrial. We've moved beyond cities back to like, I don't know, a really fucking dope futuristic... Green shit everywhere. Maybe. Like green walls and...

0:32:33.4 TK: I'd love that.

0:32:34.4 PA: That's gotta be the future. Automatic cars, very boring tunnels. Solar energy. I don't know, I see this sort of futuristic vision of 2100.

0:32:43.7 TK: Mm-hmm.

0:32:45.1 PA: Maybe it's a more Ready Player One situation.

0:32:47.4 TK: I love that movie.

0:32:48.3 PA: Or maybe it's more of a Hunger Game situation.

0:32:51.1 TK: That's a stark contrast.

0:32:52.0 PA: But if it's a Hunger Game situation, I'm definitely living in the capital.

0:32:57.2 TK: Or District One.

0:32:58.4 PA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in the monarchy royalty. I'm a little fucked up. You know?

[chuckle]

0:33:03.5 PA: But we were all... That's the thing about life. That's the thing about people.

0:33:09.5 TK: I love it. That's so good. That's so good.

0:33:12.5 PA: You just gotta own your power. That's it.

0:33:14.7 TK: Silent power.

0:33:16.1 PA: Silent power. BDE. Back to the BDE.

0:33:20.1 TK: Wanna know why?

0:33:21.2 PA: Why are we all a little fucked up, Tim? Yeah, tell me why.

0:33:25.1 TK: Why are we a little fucked up?

0:33:26.5 PA: Yeah, what's going on?

0:33:28.6 TK: I think it goes back to listening. We're not listening enough. Right? Not just listening to each other, not just listening to nature, not just listening to yourself, but also listening to a greater power. And I don't care what you label it, but I'm a believer of a greater power, that we get to connect and listen to more.

0:34:00.8 PA: So spirituality.

0:34:02.1 TK: Absolutely.

0:34:02.8 PA: In some ways, that's always been the case, but in many ways, we've become much more materialistic, we've become much more attached to the matrix, so to say. To time, much more attached to time. Much more attached to numbers and financial things, and the tangible. And because we've become so fixated on the tangible, we've lost touch with the intangible and the mystery and all these sorts of things.

0:34:28.8 PA: And that's often... That's what imbues these really powerful uplifting spiritual experiences that you have on Ayahuasca and 5-MeO-DMT and mushrooms, and Ketamine sometimes. They're very invigorating, they're very nourishing.

0:34:42.8 TK: I agree.

0:34:45.5 PA: These are very powerful medicines. While I don't think they're going to save the world, they'll help inspire a lot of healing and change.

0:34:56.3 TK: I agree. I don't think it's going to be something that everyone takes in the world, though it would be very beneficial, right? Realistically, I still try to ground my assumptions. I don't think everyone's gonna be able to take it, nor will take it. 'Cause it's such a choice aspect. These powerful medicines are a conscious choice decision, I think that's gonna be good to understand that.

0:35:20.0 PA: Tell us about your tattoos. You have, I see four. I know you have one more. One, two, three... Ah, on your back. It's six. Would we say that's... Six is like the...

0:35:34.1 TK: It's not a complete number.

0:35:36.1 PA: Six is like...

[vocalization]

0:35:36.9 TK: I'm not on the edge.

0:35:37.5 PA: Six-six-six is the devil's... I don't know, maybe you gotta pop up to seven. It's either three or...

0:35:42.0 TK: I have my seventh one already. Designed. Thought through.

0:35:48.0 PA: What is it?

0:35:49.3 TK: So each of my tattoos have a very fundamental core value I'm gonna devote my life to. Core principles. One of them was when we talked about, "Be humble, stay humble and practice empathy." The next one is gonna be be, "Be unconditional love." And each of those words are very intentional in itself, being before doing, be something to then do, but that will guide you to do what you wanna do, to have what you want to have. Be love, to then do kindness and to have abundance.

0:36:31.5 TK: So be unconditional. Unconditional, the opposite of conditional, where there are conditions to things that we agree on or love. Love is very, it's very tricky, can be conditional a lot of times. So choosing unconditional, the word "unconditional", the value behind that. And love. Love, the medicine of it all, the state that we all desire to be in and to receive. So, "Be unconditional love."

0:37:06.3 TK: My approach with tattoos, I see it as a little life hack. Where every day when I finish showering and I look in the mirror and I get to see these tattoos, it might just be the reminder I need to focus on in that chunk of lifetime. I set the bar higher and higher for the quality of tattoos I want it, after each one.

0:37:24.0 PA: Yeah. 'Cause you learn a little bit.

0:37:25.1 TK: So in something even more powerful and so worthy of the last tattoo, that makes sense for it to be your favorite one. So I would say yeah, probably yeah. Anyways, it represents selfless service. Saver.

0:37:44.8 PA: Is your next one a whale?

0:37:49.1 TK: After that, I don't know yet.

0:37:50.7 PA: Because the owl is your spirit animal, right?

0:37:53.1 TK: Maybe if I combine it in a way, that would be sick.

0:37:56.5 PA: And I think going back to our spirit power animal conversation earlier in today's podcast, I think if the whale is your...

0:38:05.8 TK: Power animal. And I think I would fuse the animals together in the tattoo and...

0:38:11.0 PA: Okay. That would be cool. Almost turn it into like a... Ooh, that'd be sick. Do it like a...

0:38:16.2 TK: Half sleeve. Or a full...

0:38:17.1 PA: Yeah, half sleeve beautiful whale. Like a Japanese.

0:38:21.5 TK: Or all the power... So you don't just have one power animal, by the way.

0:38:25.6 PA: What was it like to build and sell a software company? Tell us a little bit about Tint. Tell us what you built. And then, I'd love to hear about how that leads into what you want to build next? You've had your shits and giggles at the 1heart...

0:38:42.8 TK: Hopping around the world.

0:38:44.2 PA: You know, you've been very nomadic, you've gotten to travel, you wanna dig back in a little bit. What's going on there? So I think that's a good through line.

0:38:52.0 TK: So I started a marketing software company, it was called Tint. I think about it from a user-generated content perspective. You know, I started that company 'cause I had a chip on my shoulder, I wanted to prove to myself and to make my mother proud as well. Those are really the core reasons. And then ego kicked in and be like, "Wow, it feels really good to have a CEO title and be recognized that way."

0:39:15.8 TK: But that process, wow, I think the best way to sum that up and just that journey, is when I thought... Was coming to an end of it, I was grateful I could exit and take some money out the table. But more importantly, I was like, "Did I really just spend seven years of my life on something I was never really aligned with?" And having a little deep reflection period on that, 'cause I was like, "Fuck, did I just do that?"

0:39:47.2 TK: In that same ceremony, we were talking about earlier, towards the end of that ceremony, the message that came back was that, "You didn't waste the last seven years of running a company and starting it and creating it. You were just on the training grounds to get ready for the next endeavor." I was so humbled when I heard that. I was like, "Fuck. Okay, here we go."

0:40:13.6 TK: And so how that's led to what I'm doing now, it's like I'm able to even stand a chance to still do this kind of heavy work and challenging work. Lots of emotions, lots of... But lots of potential kind of work and be like, "I'm ready for it. Let's go." I really enjoy it. For the next few years for Third Wave, what I see is...

0:40:45.8 TK: So we're in the third wave of psychedelics, and I think you as a company, as a wave, is just starting. What I mean by that is that I see so much potential in this movement that you've created, and I feel like it's just a... You've created a tiny wave so far. And how it gets to the next big wave, I think for you as a company and a movement, is that the people and the community that come around this concept of the third wave and this opportunity to change psychedelic history for an intentional transformational healing way, starts to take over the movement itself.

0:41:31.0 TK: So that you and I, people who are trying to pump this wave into action are just stewards and ambassadors behind the scenes. And that comes back to humbleness.

0:41:40.1 PA: Yeah. So we've talked about this mycelial network, right? This is a term that I included quite a bit as we put investor, and then we're working on sort of rebrand and a new user interface, 'cause we need to integrate this directory. And what's continued to come up is that sense of a mycelial network, that sense of peer-to-peer is another way to think about it, decentralization, right? Like, what does that feeling look like in the psychedelic space?

0:42:05.6 PA: And I think both of us have spent a lot of time in the last, especially few weeks considering that, and how does that integrate with cryptocurrencies and bitcoin, and how does that integrate with other emerging technologies around wearable health that helps us track and measure our own health and well-being, which is becoming much more prominent. I haven't seen a doctor in 12 years. I haven't seen a dentist in three years. I have perfect teeth, never had a cavity. I have a great smile.

0:42:32.2 TK: Yeah, you do.

0:42:32.8 PA: Yeah. Now you do too.

0:42:34.5 TK: Thank you.

0:42:35.1 PA: Yeah, yeah.

0:42:35.7 TK: That is new, literally.

0:42:37.0 PA: That's super new. So what's your take on how that comes together? What's the role of a Mindbloom or a Third Wave or a Wavepaths, or some of these other companies that are providing value now, building value? And the much more corporate players who are raising, we could say, tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in investment? How does that all fit together? Describe the ecosystem for us.

0:43:01.8 TK: Of psychedelics?

0:43:03.8 PA: Specifically, yeah. The legal and regulated use of psychedelics, whether it's clinical or in retreat settings, or whether it's... It could even be underground, 'cause a lot of people are just gonna fucking grow their own mushrooms and dig mushrooms. You're not gonna make any money off of them, which I think is the whole point. Like, grow a fuckton of mushrooms. Mushrooms will save the world. I actually do believe that. It's something that I do believe, right?

0:43:25.2 TK: It's beautiful.

0:43:25.6 PA: Back to humility.

0:43:27.9 TK: Because it's nature.

0:43:29.2 PA: It's nature.

0:43:31.4 TK: And that's another tattoo I actually have as an idea, by the way, nature versus normal. And this goes into answering your other question as well. I've been asking myself the question, what's natural versus what's normal? And I try to shift as much of my decisions around what's natural. So that can play out in just kind of like things we eat, our diet. And I don't do the best job, and I'm fully aware of that. But there is the question that always asks, what's normal?

0:44:05.2 TK: Which is what we're told and taught and see and just subconsciously all receive, do. Or what's natural? What's gonna be sustainable? So this plays in the other question of like, okay, you wanna take into that perspective of the whole ecosystem. I think here's an opportunity for asking this question, what's natural versus normal?

0:44:29.1 TK: Are the big... CEOs who are raising a lot of money in the psychedelic space right now, will they follow a natural or they will follow a normal route? The normal route being like, you know this is trying to be a Big Pharma play, and you know you just wanna find a way to exploit it in some capacity and make billions of dollars. That's the game that we're all programmed to play, and I'll admit that I play that game too.

0:45:03.1 TK: But when you're dealing with these kinds of medicines and compounds, I don't think they're to be messed with. That's my opinion, first and foremost. Don't think they're meant to be messed with. And if you do, I don't know, are you playing a normal game of trying to figure out the next billion, trillion-dollar industry and try to exploit it? I don't know.

0:45:25.4 PA: What's the risk to that?

0:45:26.8 TK: I think on a very easy perspective, we're gonna fall into another phase of, all research needs to be suspended again and just not... Is moving too fast. I mean, that's one thing that a lot of people have already talked about or I've heard about. The other risk, on a spiritual side, on the mental health side, you can traumatize even more people. And that's going backwards as a society trying to awaken, 'cause you're using it for poor settings and recreational purposes that really can jar you the other way.

0:46:03.5 PA: Which is why education is so important and why the research is important and why the clinical rollout of it is important. It's complicated because the barrier between what's clinical and not clinical is becoming much more blurred, right? It's more a question of, well, what do we have the freedom to do, and the freedom to explore our own consciousness, freedom to take responsibility for that, and basically tell...

0:46:29.1 PA: I mean, I've been very public in this for six years now, and I have never once received any sort of law inquiry, anything like that. Never once. It just feels like this is so not a thing to be worried about any longer. And it just takes time to change laws and change regulations.

0:46:49.7 TK: Exactly.

0:46:50.9 PA: That's the nature of it. And it buys us time to then figure out how do you educate millions and millions of people about this, in a way that's reasonable. I think that's what we're doing, and that's what we're so great at.

0:47:00.7 TK: And that in itself, when I think about getting involved in just this movement. I'm like, if I can nudge something, tweak something, clean something, do something to help that movement in the most humbling place again, I could be on my death bed being like, "Okay, I genuinely had a heartfelt, loving intention to elevate human consciousness through these very powerful medicines. If it's one, if it's a thousand, if a million people, whatever. Fuck yeah, I'm good, peace out."

0:47:37.0 PA: That's it. You're going to the call. Like I'm done. See ya.

[chuckle]

0:47:43.9 TK: Real quickly, I just wanted to go back to that, finishing that analogy. When I think about the psychedelic ecosystem, what we talked about was normal, like play the game, make tons of money. It's monopoly, just play Monopoly, we're playing Monopoly, let's be real.

0:47:56.5 TK: Yeah, they're playing Monopoly.

0:48:00.0 PA: Let's be real here.

0:48:00.1 TK: Yeah. What's the natural way, right? And I'm like, "What would an eco-psychedelic ecosystem from a natural way look like?" And a huge keyword that immediately pops into my head is "co-creation and collaboration", and that's so natural. We see that in nature. And unfortunately, mankind somewhere, somehow along the history line decided not to, or saw another side of the spectrum and was teased by it and decided to live in that side of the spectrum.

0:48:35.1 PA: I think a lot about the natural psychedelic ecosystem is one of... There is, this is an infinite game, there's no winners or losers, there is abundance for all, as long as we can expand our understanding of what abundance can entail. And when we do that, our boy Keith's keyword is "co-elevation".

0:48:54.5 PA: Co-elevation.

0:48:54.8 TK: We co-elevate together.

0:48:56.9 PA: And that's what we're trying to do, we're just trying to elevate our consciousness, motherfucker. All about elevating human consciousness.

0:49:05.3 TK: And I know that word is thrown around so much that it gets watered down, for sure. I get it.

0:49:10.0 PA: We fucking do that shit, dude. We execute. That's what matters.

0:49:14.2 TK: That's exactly what I'm trying to...

0:49:15.8 PA: You have to execute.

0:49:16.8 TK: You have to execute. Execution is also a BDE. Good executing is BDE.

0:49:21.6 PA: There's some good executors in the... Ronan is a very good executor, from Field Trip. Ronan and [unclear speech]. What they're building is impressive. I'm impressed. They're doing well. There's a few others as well, but right now... Well, there's many others, it's just Ronan was the first one that came to mind in terms of operator, executor, that's building a public company in the psychedelic space. Also, I'm impressed with the team that they built and kinda what they have, and they've raised a lot of money. $70 million almost.

0:49:47.9 PA: I was talking about this with Jim Fadiman, and we interviewed him for the podcast. I interviewed him yesterday, and he was saying, "Yeah, the same thing happened in Cannabis. Went up and then it popped. Right now, it's going up, up, up, and at some point, the bellies will flip." And that's why it's so important to grow slowly, organically. It's really easy to get caught up building castles in the sky, and then realizing, "Oh. Can't actually create the values that... "

0:50:18.3 TK: There's no grounding, too.

0:50:19.0 PA: Yeah, there's no grounding.

0:50:21.1 TK: I agree with that, and I was just talking to a buddy today, and I was saying, I presume, and I'm sure many people may assume as well, that the key difference opportunity between Cannabis and psychedelics will be the integration. And what I mean by that is, if we see all these medicines as teachers and medicines, as rightly so, then they're here to teach us something, right?

0:50:44.2 TK: And our experience and these experiences are trying to give us some understanding of something that we may be missing. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, Cannabis was abused. In shamanic cultures, I've heard, they say that Cannabis has been raped. So think about that, right? Think about that kind of usage of it and how we see Cannabis. It's not only recreational, like it goes even beyond the not so good place of recreational.

0:51:17.8 PA: Mm-hmm.

0:51:19.3 TK: What's that word I would use? Contempt. To just...

0:51:23.0 PA: Mm-hmm.

0:51:24.0 TK: There's that the sacredness is gone. So I think integration will be the key difference for the Cannabis industry versus psychedelic industry. The more that we can default to asking ourselves how are we gonna integrate each of our psychedelic experiences, each of our altered states of consciousness experiences, there's gonna be elevation of human consciousness, that introspection elevates us. And I can't find an argument from anybody that I'm trying to empathize with, to be like, "No, that doesn't make sense for our world".

0:52:05.9 TK: So if there's going to be that integration practice as the default practice that we can choose to practice in after every psychedelic experience or these kinds of altered states, even it's as simple as like, "What do I wanna take away from this last five hours, three hours, if I smoked some Cannabis, if I altered my state of consciousness for 20 minutes in breathwork, like what do I just wanna take away?"

0:52:29.3 TK: Just one word, one sentence, whatever. That's already integration. That's beautiful. If we can all practice that into psychedelic experiences, I think we'll elevate, and I just can't see why someone would be like, "No, that doesn't make sense. You shouldn't do that."

0:52:44.2 PA: Dialogue and discussion is important, and looking for ways to create things together in partnerships, and there's opportunity, that's what I love about what we're up to, it's like you can be friends with everyone. It is a blue ocean. There's lots of space. I love our vision in particular because it's both an entity, but also a philosophy. You sort of act as a... You influence in many different ways.

0:53:08.7 PA: Which I think is critical, because there isn't a cohesive framework for how to think about decrim versus medical versus whatever else. I think with this concept of third wave, it's encompassing enough for this mycelial network, right?

0:53:27.1 TK: I like it.

0:53:27.2 PA: It can touch everything, that's the idea. Anything that has to do with psychedelics, it can touch.

0:53:32.4 TK: And at the same time from that humility standpoint, positioning ourselves as, at least how I see myself, just being stewards.

0:53:40.0 PA: What psychedelics help us to do is trust more than anything, and feel safe. And when we trust, and feel safe and can surrender, then a lot of our worries sort of evaporate.

0:53:50.3 TK: Fade away, yeah.

0:53:52.1 PA: That's the whole thing of mindfulness and all that sort of stuff. But people would respond, "Oh, it's collective, and there's a community element." And there totally is, and America is not the ideal, but there's also no... We're becoming more perfect every day, is a good way to put it. Every day is a new utopia. Maybe. Well, it's been about an hour. This has been good.

0:54:19.8 TK: It's been an hour?

0:54:20.7 PA: Yeah. That's...

0:54:23.0 TK: Damn.

0:54:23.2 PA: I feel like... Anything we didn't cover that would be fun to talk about?

0:54:28.9 TK: You know what topic comes up real quickly?

0:54:31.1 PA: What?

0:54:32.1 TK: My understanding of who you are, blooming in the last year together. I don't mean to toot your horn or share anything around what people may already know, but I just wanted to... Actually wanted to acknowledge you. And I know you didn't plan for this, and that's why I'm sharing it with you 'cause I didn't even plan to share this.

0:54:51.3 PA: Just came up.

0:54:52.2 TK: Just came up, yeah. Is, I think the best way to sum up of your unraveling, your evolution this last year, from my observation, has been coming to this place of like, "I knew I created something powerful. I might have been veered off here and there these last few years, but there's something greater in this that now I'm re-committing myself into." I saw that.

0:55:21.3 TK: Combined with that, was this place of your devotion to bettering yourself, that will obviously teach you in many different ways. Maybe yours kind of like, could be bio-hacking this and that, mine is connection to spirit. But yet we can still converse with these two sides together. And that devotion to bettering yourself, I just know it's a healthy thing to do, taking on the responsibility of what you're trying to build, let's put it that way.

0:55:57.3 TK: I feel like when you will have some big decisions in the future of how this turns out to be, you're not playing just the normal game, you're gonna understand why natural is beautiful, in it as a choice. And that's what I see you becoming more and more connected to, and I feel like you'll be able to take the Third Wave into its next beautiful stage of the wave you are right now.

0:56:27.7 PA: Thank you, Tim. It's been an honor.

0:56:31.0 TK: It's been a year together, man.

0:56:33.3 PA: Sit down and chat with you. Yeah, it has been. We've been through a lot. We've learned a lot.

0:56:38.0 TK: What I wanna end with is just this gratitude for this moment at whatever time it is right now, to have a conversation with you, to actually have it be the most humorous... Just like I had so much giddiness inside myself, 'cause I was understanding how your interview style is, and I actually genuinely like it.

[chuckle]

0:57:04.7 PA: Oh yeah.

0:57:05.3 TK: That this was the most giddy interview I've ever done.

0:57:09.1 PA: It was fun, yeah. It was a tone of fun, yeah.

0:57:11.1 TK: And then having that gratitude and being like, "Wow, you're about to leave Miami tomorrow."

0:57:17.8 PA: Yeah, tomorrow, yeah.

0:57:19.1 TK: I leave in a week and a half.

0:57:20.6 PA: Very soon.

0:57:22.9 TK: And just be beautiful close to a chapter in Miami together, quarantine together, seeing each other way too much sometimes, but then having a really good time.

0:57:33.3 PA: Yeah, you miss me though. When I would leave for a day, you'd... Tim would text me, "Are you coming back?" and I'll be like, "Yeah, dude, I'm like tomorrow."

0:57:40.6 TK: Those were in the middle days of quarantine.

0:57:42.8 PA: Those were the bad days of quarantine.

0:57:43.5 TK: These were like some low days.

0:57:45.0 PA: You couldn't leave, you had to stay the whole time inside.

0:57:47.5 TK: Exactly. So you needed to have someone next to you. [chuckle]

0:57:51.1 PA: Yeah, yeah. It was a lonely time for you. Yeah, I felt for you.

0:57:54.2 TK: But this was a great year, this was a great opportunity to close a beautiful year and chapter, and concluding with just a lot of gratitude.

0:58:04.8 PA: Me as well, gratitude for Tim. Gratitude for all the listeners here, gratitude for the time last year in Miami. Gratitude for psychedelics, gratitude for mushrooms, non-psychedelic. Gratitude for palm trees 'cause they have coconuts. And gratitude for Diana for filming this entire thing.

0:58:22.1 TK: Thank you, love.

0:58:23.0 PA: Thank you.