Episode 365
Paul F. Austin
In this solo episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin offers a candid introduction to 5-MeO-DMT, one of the shortest and most intense psychedelic experiences. He distinguishes synthetic 5-MeO-DMT from Bufo, compares it with N,N-DMT and psilocybin, and examines the risks that social media narratives often leave out. Paul also explores low-dose versus breakthrough work, nervous system readiness, medication interactions, facilitator screening, reactivations, ecological responsibility, and why integration may matter far more than the experience itself.
Paul F. Austin is an entrepreneur, educator, and pioneer in the psychedelic field. He is the founder of Third Wave, a leading platform dedicated to psychedelic education, and the Psychedelic Coaching Institute, which trains coaches and practitioners to responsibly support psychedelic experiences and integration.
As the host of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul has interviewed hundreds of leading researchers, clinicians, indigenous wisdom keepers, entrepreneurs, and cultural innovators at the forefront of the psychedelic renaissance. His work focuses on the intersection of psychedelics, leadership, personal development, mental health, and cultural transformation. Through his writing, speaking, and educational programs, he has helped shape the conversation around how psychedelics can be safely and responsibly integrated into modern society.
Podcast Highlights
- 5-MeO-DMT beyond the social media hype
- Synthetic 5-MeO-DMT versus Bufo
- How 5-MeO differs from N,N-DMT
- Low-dose work versus complete ego dissolution
- Why nervous system readiness matters
- Medication interactions and physical safety
- Reactivations after the acute experience
- How to evaluate a 5-MeO facilitator
- Ecological concerns surrounding toad-derived Bufo
- Why integration outlasts the experience
This episode is brought to you by The Practitioner Certification Program by Third Wave’s Psychedelic Coaching Institute. To learn more about our flagship 8-month training program for coaches who want to integrate psychedelic modalities into their practice, click here.
Podcast Transcript
00:00:01 Paul F. Austin
There's a huge gap between what you "see" about 5-MeO-DMT on social media and what actually happens—physiologically, psychologically—in a high-dose Bufo experience. 5-MeO has been called the most powerful psychedelic on Earth. Some refer to it as the "Everest of psychedelics." So today I want to take you into this molecule, this experience, with honesty: what it really is, why it's suddenly everywhere, and what it genuinely asks of you before you'd ever go near it.
00:00:33 Paul F. Austin
Now, keep in mind, I've spent over a decade in this psychedelic world professionally. I'm going to bring you as close as I responsibly can to something that most people will never experience, and I'm going to do my best to—to—to be straight with you about the parts that the hype leaves out. Now, keep in mind this is only educational content. It is not medical or legal advice. 5-MeO is a Schedule 1 substance in the U.S. This is a medicine with real and documented risk, including fatal interactions with certain medications and deaths tied to unsafe settings and unqualified facilitators. Nothing here is encouragement; it's the opposite. You've got to know your laws and consult qualified medical professionals before going forth with it.
00:01:15 Paul F. Austin
So what is 5-MeO-DMT actually? The compound 5-MeO-DMT is a tryptamine, a chemical cousin of NM-DMT, which is found in ayahuasca. Now, 5-MeO-DMT is found in a range of plants, including the Yopo and Cohoba snuffs of South America, and in one toad: the Bufo alvarius toad. It can also be synthesized. And that distinction is what matters most, because when you hear about 5-MeO-DMT, you'll hear about 5-MeO, and you'll also hear about Bufo.
00:01:46 Paul F. Austin
And when it's referred to as 5-MeO-DMT, this is usually synthetic; it's a single, purified, known compound. Whereas when it's talked about in terms of being "Bufo," this is the Sonoran Desert toad secretion. It is not pure 5-MeO. And Bufo is a biological cocktail. It's usually 5-MeO alongside bufotenine and bufotoxins. These are compounds that act directly on the heart. And so Bufo is an unstandardized mixture with cardiac active components.
00:02:17 Paul F. Austin
Now, the name "the God Molecule" tracks from the character of the experience, which is often a total dissolving of the boundary between self and everything, a sense of unity or oneness, and ego death. This non-dual quality is what often gives Bufo its beauty. It also is what can lead to massive destabilization, which we'll get into later.
00:02:41 Paul F. Austin
Now, pharmacologically, 5-MeO-DMT is a little bit different than the classic psychedelics. It acts primarily as a serotonin 5-HT1A agonist instead of a 5-HT2A agonist like LSD or psilocybin. It works hard on the serotonin system, which is why medication interactions are so serious. And one really important thing to keep in mind is: synthetic is always preferred, because the Sonoran Desert toad is ecologically imperiled. It's locally extinct in parts of its range. It's pressured by overharvesting, trafficking, and inhumane milking. And there's no evidence that toad-derived 5-MeO produces a better outcome than synthetic. So the—the sort of purity mystique is really harming a species. And so we really advise, if you're going to go forward with this, to look at synthetic 5-MeO rather than Bufo.
00:03:33 Paul F. Austin
Now, 5-MeO has also been found in plant snuffs, specifically in something called Yopo. And that goes back centuries. They found snuff bags from hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago that have traces of bufotenine. The toad smoking with 5-MeO-DMT is very recent. It was actually popularized through a 1980s pamphlet, and it's been a Schedule 1 drug in the United States since 2011. So Bufo and 5-MeO-DMT are not necessarily the same conversation. One is a purified molecule that is synthesized, that doesn't come with the same ecological considerations, and the other is a substance that is pulled from a species that's going towards collapse.
00:04:17 Paul F. Austin
Now, how does 5-MeO compare to NM-DMT, which is found in ayahuasca or psilocybin? So 5-MeO is about 4 to 6 times as potent as NM-DMT, but the bigger surprise here is the character of the experience. NM-DMT, when smoked, is famously visionary. This is what Terence McKenna has talked about. This is what Joe Rogan goes on and on about: geometry, entities, the machine elves. Whereas 5-MeO is almost the opposite. There's very little visual content. It's more of a whiteout, a collapse of self into undifferentiated everything.
00:04:54 Paul F. Austin
There are different receptors involved. There is a different safety profile. And it's important to remember that 5-MeO is not just another form of DMT. 5-MeO is another tryptamine, but 5-MeO-DMT and NM-DMT are very distinct substances. And this is the most common sort of point of confusion that I hear folks saying is, "Oh, yeah, I smoke DMT." And I always have to clarify, "Did you smoke 5-MeO or did you smoke NM?" And when they go, "Eh, I'm not really sure," I say, "Did you see elves in geometry, or did you go into white light?" More often than not these days, people are smoking 5-MeO rather than NM-DMT. This is important to remember.
00:05:35 Paul F. Austin
Now, the difference between 5-MeO and psilocybin is pretty significant as well. Psilocybin tends to be a 4 to 6-hour journey, with room to course correct and a very forgiving physical safety margin. 5-MeO comes on in seconds, peaks almost immediately, and is largely over in 30 minutes or so. That brevity is deceptive, though, because the intensity per minute is in another category. And the physical risks with Bufo or 5-MeO-DMT are real in a way that psilocybins mostly aren't. So if you've experienced these, this difference, you know how they differ. If you haven't sat with 5-MeO, then just recognize that the intensity of it can be pretty nuts.
00:06:22 Paul F. Austin
My own experiences with—with Bufo and 5-MeO-DMT have been very nervous-system-oriented. They've been very cathartic. They've been—I tend to thrash around and yell, and some have been quite peaceful, but others have been where a lot of catharsis and a lot of release is happening. And so it's not all just sit back into the white light and relax. A lot of these experiences with 5-MeO can be—can be quite intense.
00:06:52 Paul F. Austin
After over a decade of working professionally in the psychedelic space, one thing has become clear to me: if we want to guide others through this journey, there is no substitute for doing our inner work. At the Psychedelic Coaching Institute, we train people to guide others through transformation—ethically, effectively, and with integrity. Our certification combines science-backed education with coaching mastery, culminating in a legal psychedelic experience at our in-person intensive in Costa Rica. You'll gain practical skills, leadership training, and get to connect with a supportive community grounded in compassion, rigor, and efficacy. If you're a coach, clinician, or conscious professional ready to serve at a higher level, we'd love to meet you. You can learn more and apply at psychedeliccoaching.institute. Again, that's psychedeliccoaching.institute, or simply see the link in the description.
00:07:44 Paul F. Austin
Now, 5-MeO is slowly reaching the mainstream. In the last few months, we saw the longevity influencer Brian Johnson who livestreamed his 5-MeO-DMT experience on X. This was, in many ways, culture's really first look at the overall experience. But 5-MeO has been quite popular in the sort of psychedelic practitioner scene for nearly a decade now, I would say. And especially the last 5 years, it's become very popular.
00:08:17 Paul F. Austin
This—this way that Brian Johnson did it on X was, in some ways, helpful to raise education and awareness about its potential utility. In other ways, it was problematic because he did such a high dose. And so there are a lot of people, I think, who, you know, were watching at home who didn't realize that that dose was as high as it was. And so it's important that anyone, I think, going into 5-MeO-DMT for the first time really comes in at a lower dose, a titrated dose, right? Start low and go slow. I think just how, you know, we talk about in the podcast or on the YouTube channel, microdosing is great—is a great entry point for LSD or psilocybin. It's the same with 5-MeO-DMT. It really is good to first do these very low doses and slowly work your way up.
00:09:02 Paul F. Austin
Now, Brian Johnson, one of the reasons he did this is because there's been more and more clinical research coming out about 5-MeO-DMT. As of 2026, the FDA has cleared advanced phase 3 trials for an inhaled 5-MeO formulation through ATAI Beckley. And a separate intranasal program holds breakthrough therapy status with late-stage trials underway. And so a big part of the research appeal is that it's short-acting. You know, patients can be ready to leave 90 minutes after dosing versus the full-day sessions that psilocybin or MDMA require. So it fits really well into that clinical model. The same clinical model that Spravato, the patented ketamine from J&J, has become quite prominent within.
00:09:49 Paul F. Austin
This doesn't necessarily mean that it's safe to do alone at home, right? The mainstreaming is happening in labs and headlines and also in the underground, where there's really well-trained facilitators. There are a lot of bad actors specifically in the 5-MeO-DMT space. So if 5-MeO is something that you've been interested in and you want to explore, it is so, so essential to find a really grounded facilitator. A lot of the facilitators who are not so great, who work with 5-MeO-DMT, tend to be quite ungrounded and manic even. And so you really want to find someone that you can fully drop into and trust.
00:10:26 Paul F. Austin
And—and I—I talked about this or referred to this in the previous Solo episode on psilocybin as well, which we're often drawn to chase the strongest strain possible. And I think 5-MeO also plays into that lens where people are like, "Oh, yeah, the Everest of psychedelics, the most intense psychedelics. I want to do this." But the fact is, the—the most harm that I've seen come from destabilization with psychedelic experiences comes from 5-MeO-DMT. So you really want to ensure that if you're doing this—this—this work with this molecule, that you're really paying close attention to preparation, you're finding a great facilitator, and you're giving yourself some spaciousness in the integration phase to sit with whatever may arise.
00:11:08 Paul F. Austin
Now, this—this key distinction: breakthrough versus low dose. One of the more popular ways that 5-MeO-DMT is now being used in the underground is through titrated pen work. And so there's a subsection of practitioners who have gone through our training program who are combining this titrated low-dose 5-MeO pen work with IFS, Internal Family Systems. And so you can slowly work your way up to a higher and higher sort of breakthrough experience. And that—that full breakthrough, right, is with the titrated pens.
00:11:41 Paul F. Austin
This is a little bit different than if you're going in and smoking a very high dose of 5-MeO. You sort of build your way up. When I've done it before, I sort of build my way up into basically a state of orgasm and pure bliss. Whereas when I just go and jump in the deep end right away with a high dose off the bat, it tends to be much more cathartic. There's a lot more convulsions, and it's not all that peaceful, to be honest. And that's because these high-dose breakthroughs don't always land softly, right? As I've talked about, people can often walk away from a high-dose 5-MeO experience dysregulated, sometimes for weeks or months. Nervous system instability, psychological instability that doesn't just resolve on its own, and too often without the resources or support to come back from it.
00:12:24 Paul F. Austin
So as we've talked about on this YouTube channel and on this podcast, how our nervous system is being held in this process is very, very important because that nervous system readiness, what your system can actually hold and metabolize, matters as much as the medicine itself. And once you're looking through that lens, you see the thing that almost no one is talking about, which is that 5-MeO doesn't only exist at the breakthrough end. It really is about these low to middle doses that I think is going to be most impactful with 5-MeO-DMT.
00:12:56 Paul F. Austin
Let's go a little bit deeper into low dose versus breakthrough because I really see these as the two faces of 5-MeO. And this is more practitioner-level nuance that brings us into some of the—the particulars around how to best work with this. So I—I look at low doses of 5-MeO and breakthrough doses as different medicines from the same molecule. So you could think of it like a dial, right, that we're tuning into this frequency. And low doses are like an AM dial, and high doses, or breakthrough doses, like an FM dial.
00:13:30 Paul F. Austin
And the psycholytic model, right, this low dose plus therapy, I think, is much more accessible for more people and much safer from a stabilization perspective. The breakthrough dose, which is complete ego dissolution, non-dual, executive function offline, the medicine fully in the lead, there's essentially no you left to do active work in the peak. That can lead to—to—to bigger breakthroughs for sure. It can also lead to potentially more deep destabilization. So I—I encourage usually practitioners who are getting into this, who are exploring this, who want to understand 5-MeO better, to first start with these titrated low-dose 5-MeO sessions.
00:14:13 Paul F. Austin
The way that I've done it in the past is I'll have someone sitting for me, and then I'll have a third person who is observing and noticing, and then we'll all switch. So then the—the sitter will become the person who is working with it. I'll observe, and then someone else will sit. So it really helps to work in these groups of threes. And then you can do active work as part of that. It could be IFS. What parts are you noticing come up? What protectors might be coming online? What emotions and feelings are arising?
00:14:41 Paul F. Austin
And what's really beautiful about 5-MeO, unlike lower doses of LSD or psilocybin, which can last for hours, 5-MeO-DMT lasts for a very short period of time. So you can open up this window with this titrated low-dose work, do some work within that window, and then pop out and notice the—the change right away. And this is—this is sort of part of the what I would call unraveling process. So at a low dose, 5-MeO works in a more conscious domain. It loosens and dislodges rigid patterns of thinking and the grip of the default mode network without flooding or blowing out the nervous system the way a breakthrough can for some people.
00:15:19 Paul F. Austin
It brings the body online and opens clearer, more distinct pathways between mind, body, and emotion. And this access point is what makes it such a powerful catalyst for other modalities like somatic work and parts work, IFS in particular. And again, this is coming back to it from a nervous system frame because that low-dose work stays within a person's window of tolerance, especially if they have a dysregulated nervous system. So the unraveling can actually be metabolized and integrated, which is exactly why it can support lasting change instead of destabilization.
00:15:53 Paul F. Austin
Now, from a facilitation perspective, this is not necessarily just a do-it-yourself version. Titrated 5-MeO still requires high touch and an experienced practitioner who can navigate this realm, arguably requiring more moment-to-moment skill than just holding a breakthrough because there's more back and forth, there's more interaction. At a breakthrough dose, someone is smoking it, and they're just sort of releasing to the universe. With these lower doses, it's a little bit more back and forth that's involved with it. So it's important not to confuse titrated, practitioner-guided, in-session low-dose work with just microdosing in the everyday sense.
00:16:27 Paul F. Austin
5-MeO is extraordinarily potent and short-acting. The everyday microdosing model that people know from psilocybin or LSD does not map cleanly onto it. Okay? The breakthrough shows you everything by dissolving you. The low dose loosens you just enough to do the work while you're still there to do it. Breakthrough doses are really emphasized culturally. Low doses, I think, is where the real magic work.
00:16:53 Paul F. Austin
Now, let's talk about some of the physical safety and contraindications. This is really the harm reduction core of it. So the interaction that can really harm you is 5-MeO if combined with MAOIs or RIMAs, which include some antidepressants due to serotonin syndrome, severe hypertensive reactions, and death. And so SSRIs and dopaminergic medications are serious concerns. Tool, a real medication review with a medical professional is non-negotiable before anyone goes near this. We love the spirit pharmacist as a resource for this. Okay?
00:17:29 Paul F. Austin
Now, early trial reports of 5-MeO being tolerated alongside stable SSRIs happen in a controlled clinical setting with a standardized formulation and medical oversight. This is not a green light to mix them on your own. Okay? Keep those worlds separate. Other obvious ones: don't combine with alcohol. Do not casually combine with other psychoactives like ketamine or psilocybin. If you're working with Bufo and 5-MeO, work with only Bufo and 5-MeO. If you do have potential heart issues, then make sure you do proper cardiovascular screening before. This is important.
00:18:04 Paul F. Austin
And I've mentioned this already, but the physical realities of 5-MeO, especially at a breakthrough dose, can be loss of physical control, thrashing, purging, temporary unconsciousness, respiratory depression, whiteouts, and memory gaps. Okay? So you want a sober, trained person who is protecting the space, right, ensuring that you aren't going to hurt yourself. It's really important. The first time I ever did a very high dose of Bufo, the—the medicine just pulled me up. I started to walk forward, and my facilitator actually had to, like, jiu-jitsu me down to the floor so I didn't harm myself. So you don't know what's going to happen at these high doses. So it's really important that you're in a safe container with someone who can hold you. Okay?
00:18:49 Paul F. Austin
Nearly every serious 5-MeO harm on record traces to the same root. The body wasn't screened. It wasn't safe or wasn't watched. Okay? This isn't about the molecule itself. It's simply the absence of respect and preparation. Psychological readiness, as well as the mindset coming in. There needs to be an honest screening that is carried out. A personal or family history of psychosis, mania, or bipolar disorder is a serious flag. Total ego dissolution is not neutral for a vulnerable nervous system. Okay?
00:19:21 Paul F. Austin
Readiness includes being willing to hear, "Not this, not now." With Bufo or 5-MeO-DMT, the onset and the surrender, the beginning is often the hardest part. There is a fear-of-dying response, a sense that existence itself is about to tear you apart. What facilitators teach is not to fight it, but to yield. Okay? When Brian Johnson did his experience, he described it exactly this way: the moment you either wrestle reality or just say yes to it completely. And that surrender is a skill that preparation builds. Okay? And that can simply be as—as, you know, the preparation can simply be tuning into the breath, allowing for whatever needs to come through to come through, not fighting or not resisting it, not judging oneself as it's starting to—to—to unfold. Okay? So just really allowing the—the ego to let go.
00:20:16 Paul F. Austin
Reactivations can sometimes happen with 5-MeO-DMT, and this is often the part that people don't expect. The state can return in waves over the following days or weeks. So let's say you have a really beautiful and intense experience. The next day, you might experience a reactivation. Or a couple weeks later, you might experience a reactivation. So you really have to be careful about how you hold that integration phase. Some practitioners even caution that extended meditation sessions right after may prolong reactivations. Okay? So you have to be mindful about how deep of a space you're going into with deep breath work or deep meditations after the experience itself.
00:21:00 Paul F. Austin
Who this is not for: this isn't for someone who's chasing a bigger high, the one who's unwilling to be screened, the one who wants to go solo, anyone on a contraindicated medication, or anyone in acute crisis looking for a shortcut. The psychological work isn't about being brave enough to handle it, but really about being honest enough to know whether now is the time and making sure you have a system of support around you before you go into the experience, not trying to piece it together afterwards.
00:21:32 Paul F. Austin
Okay. Professional facilitation and setting: why a trained facilitator isn't optional here. With a slower medicine, a caring sitter can be enough. Okay? With 5-MeO, you may have someone thrashing, purging, or unconscious within seconds that needs someone who is trained to manage the body, protect the airway, monitor breathing, and respond to an emergency, not just having good intentions.
00:21:55 Paul F. Austin
Now, specifically with 5-MeO-DMT, the field has documented abuse. Facilitators such as Octavio Rettig and Gerardo Sandoval have faced serious allegations. In fact, a new book just came out about a lot of these allegations: sexual abuse, psychological manipulation, intentional overdose, and multiple deaths. Okay? So that's why it's really critical that you find a really great facilitator.
00:22:23 Paul F. Austin
We love Tandava as a place to—to—to explore Bufo. We also love ETEREO, which we can link to in the comments as a place to explore Bufo. They both do really great work in Mexico. It's critical that if you want to explore this, you find someone. We also have several other coaches and practitioners in our directory that offer this. So it's just good to look into that and see what you can find.
00:22:46 Paul F. Austin
And here's how to actually vet. You know, if you're looking to work with someone, ask them: are they medically trained, or is there a medical staff present? What is the emergency protocol? Will they tell you exactly what it is? Synthetic or toad, and why? Will they connect you with past participants so you can hear about their experience? Right? Transparency here is the green flag. Mystique and defensiveness are red. You can also go to Third Wave's provider directory for vetted legal options rather than sourcing alone.
00:23:16 Paul F. Austin
Okay? Retreat standards and setting are really going up. The bar is rising: medical presence, emergency protocol, transparency, a controlled, quiet, physically safe space with nothing to fall against. Okay? With this medicine, a safe container isn't a nice-to-have around the experience. The container largely is the experience. It decides whether it's transformative or traumatic.
00:23:43 Paul F. Austin
Okay. Let's go into integration and long-term support. You've probably heard me talk about the critical learning period before, which is after a high-dose psychedelic, the brain becomes more plastic for a period of time. What they found with 5-MeO-DMT is it opens that critical learning period for as long as 4 weeks afterwards. So the brain is unusually plastic, making it a real window for changing patterns and habits. It's also when people are most raw and most in need of support.
00:24:11 Paul F. Austin
Okay? What integration actually looks like: after I work with Bufo, I go to the beach, I get in the sand, I jump in the water, I do a lot of sauna, more stretching, just something that really helps to ground me. More somatic practices, especially if that breakthrough dose experience is disorienting. Making sure you have steady support in case there are any reactivations throughout the days and weeks after. Having a community around you and skilled coaching to support you is critical here, rather than just trying to white-knuckle it alone.
00:24:44 Paul F. Austin
Okay? The intensity that makes 5-MeO compelling is the same intensity that can destabilize without support. Integration is where the experience either becomes meaningful, transformative, you know, really effective, or it becomes something that leads to disarray and disorientation. The experience itself is 30 minutes. The integration is where the actual change lives or doesn't.
00:25:13 Paul F. Austin
Okay. Some closing thoughts for you: 5-MeO-DMT sits at the far edge of the psychedelic world. It's an ancient snuff through Yopo. It's a threatened toad with the Bufo alvarius, and it's a purified molecule now moving through late-stage clinical trials. And for many people, their first genuine encounter with non-duality, okay, with full ego dissolution.
00:25:33 Paul F. Austin
Now, the point of a video like this isn't to send you toward it or away from it. It's just to bring you closer to something that most people will never touch and to give you the real, honest picture: the science, the risks, the ethics, and the respect it demands.
00:25:46 Paul F. Austin
I waited for many, many years before I worked with 5-MeO-DMT myself. I was very scared and intimidated for a long time. The first time I ever did it was 2019. I did a baby dose. In the end of 2021, I did a breakthrough dose that was really challenging to navigate. And then in the last year or so, I've done a few breakthrough doses that have been really focused on catharsis through the nervous system, and those have been very healing and very clearing. And I find Bufo just to be such a beautiful, beautiful medicine. It really does have the sort of frequency or energy of unconditional love. If held within the appropriate container, a safe place to really drop in and go deep, it can be magnificent.
00:26:28 Paul F. Austin
You can find more on YouTube and in our—our podcast about 5-MeO-DMT. And look, if you're a practitioner who is drawn to this work, the Psychedelic Coaching Institute is where we train people to hold containers like this responsibly.
00:26:43 Paul F. Austin
Okay? I'd invite you to leave a comment below: your thoughts, your questions. What do you want to hear about next? I, in fact, just got back from working with Iboga, and so we're going to do a solo cast episode on Iboga next. It's the first time I've sat with it. And I know a lot of people are curious about Iboga and IBGAN right now, so I'll give you a little bit of a—a 4-1-1 about my own experience with it and how it went. And like I said, if there are any questions or anything else that you want to hear about, please drop a comment.
