The Heart of Integration: Coaching, Microdosing, & Ethical Group Containers

Podcast Highlights

• Living with an open heart: Adrian’s psychedelic path
• Regulating the nervous system
• The power of the breathwork in psychedelic healing
• The importance of integration
• Microdosing and building trust with the medicine
• The impact of the Coaching Certification Program
• The transformation of the psychedelic field
• Ayahuasca vs. psilocybin
• The role of psychedelics in modern life
• The value of personal experience in coaching
• Adrian's group microdose program
• Where to find Adrian's work

Show Links

1. Adrian’s website
2. The Psychedelic Coaching Institute

These show links may contain affiliate links. Third Wave receives a small percentage of the product price if you purchase through the above affiliate links.

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Also brought to you by The Coaching Certification Program by Third Wave’s Psychedelic Coaching Institute. To learn more about our flagship 10-month training program for coaches who want to integrate psychedelic modalities into their practice, click here.

 

Podcast Transcript

0:00:00.1 Joseph Anew: Welcome back to The Psychedelic Podcast by Third Wave, connecting you to the leaders and pioneers of the psychedelic renaissance. This is Joseph Anew, and today I am speaking with plant medicine facilitator and integration coach Adrian Lozano.

[music]

0:00:17.4 Adrian Lozano: When I first started working with plant medicine, it was not easy for me. But I think it was really to go deep within my own healing process, to learn how to work with the psyche medicine, to learn how they're teachers, how they can show us things, and how to build a relationship with them, so now I do have a strong connection with them, and when I speak to others, when I help guide them through this process, I can speak with confidence, 'cause I have been there. You can only take someone as far as you've gone with yourself. So when someone is going through that themselves, I can sit with them in the darkness as well, 'cause I've been through that in my own journey.

0:00:53.4 Joseph Anew: Welcome to The Psychedelic Podcast by Third Wave, audio mycelium, connecting you to the luminaries and thought leaders of the psychedelic renaissance. We bring you illuminating conversations with scientists, therapists, entrepreneurs, coaches, doctors, and shamanic practitioners, exploring how we can best use psychedelic medicine to accelerate personal healing, peak performance, and collective transformation.

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0:02:35.1 Joseph Anew: If you are listening to this podcast you know we believe that psychedelic medicines are humanity's most potent tool for personal and professional growth and transformation. There's a problem in the psychedelic space right now, but for the right person, it could also be the perfect career opportunity. The medical model of psychedelics is an important step, but it cannot and likely will never meet the actual demand. It's too expensive, it's too controlled, and even if you can afford it, it's only for those with the right diagnoses. But there is so much more to these medicines than healing trauma or depression. Rediscovering purpose, enhancing creativity, expanding your sense of aliveness and wellbeing, your spiritual connection, healing your relationships, creating higher performance and leadership skills, and so, so much more. So what's happening is that curious individuals are having to hit the streets, find substances where they can, and trust that the underground facilitator or guide has been properly trained, has the right experience, and the right intentions.

0:03:41.7 Joseph Anew: It's created an ecosystem with a lot of opportunity and many unqualified, undertrained, and inexperienced people out there serving psychedelic medicines and hosting ceremonies. Bringing professionalism and ethics to the psychedelic space and the underground is something that we have been committed to since our launch in 2015. On our website, we have all of our trusted and vetted professionals listed for all to find for free. And for those looking to step in at a higher level themselves, who want to become educated, either to launch a new professional psychedelic practice, or take an existing one to the next level, I invite you to check out our 10-month psychedelic coaching certification. We brought together an incredible faculty, covering every aspect of psychedelic work; mind, body, and spirit. The certification is by application only, and explores the depths of psychedelic medicines as well as our own proven five step model for their safe, intentional, and responsible use, from microdosing to heroic dosing. For more details and to enroll yourself now for our next certification program, beginning soon, please visit psychedeliccoaching.institute now. That's psychedeliccoaching.institute now.

0:05:01.7 Joseph Anew: Hey listeners, this is Joseph Anew, Institute director at the Psychedelic Coaching Institute. It's been a while since I've sat down with you here as co-host on The Psychedelic Podcast. And I'm excited for today's exploration. We're gonna be diving in to the very essence of psychedelic integration with my guest, Adrian Lozano. Adrian is a plant medicine facilitator and integration coach with over seven years of experience. His own healing journey was catalyzed by the power of plant medicines. Now Adrian holds space for others to realize the same healing potential through education, guidance and support around the safe and intentional use of plant medicine. Adrian leads retreats, facilitates ceremonies, and supports individuals with microdosing and integration. In our conversation today, Adrian shares his journey with psychedelics, which helped him tap into his inner strengths and unique gifts to go from living with anxiety and depression, to living on purpose with an open heart.

0:06:00.4 Joseph Anew: He emphasizes the importance of regulating the nervous system and overcoming social anxiety. Adrian also highlights the role of integration and self-regulation in the psychedelic experience. Together Adrian and I explore the benefits of microdosing and breathwork as tools for personal growth and transformation. And we get into building trust with psychedelic medicines, what that means and why it is so important. Adrian shares how the coaching certification program transformed his professional trajectory. He offers his perspective on the ever evolving psychedelic field, highlighting the importance of ethics and community. Adrian also introduces his group microdosing program, touching on the power of community in psychedelic integration. And a quick note, if you want to learn more about our certification program at the intersection of psychedelic medicine, high performance coaching, and the frontiers of human potential, head on over to psychedeliccoaching.institute. All right, that's it for now. I hope you enjoy my conversation today with Adrian Lozano.

0:07:08.4 Joseph Anew: Adrian, brother, great to see you again here. Take two on this podcast. How are you, brother?

0:07:13.3 Adrian Lozano: I'm doing pretty good. Thanks for having me on again.

0:07:15.8 Joseph Anew: Of course, of course. For those listening, this is our second attempt. We had some technical difficulties the other day and we decided to live and fight another day, so here we are and we're gonna dive in, pick up where we left off. So Adrian, I'd love to just kind of start where we do here in terms of your lived experience and sort of how you found yourself working with psychedelics professionally. Where did your journey begin with these medicines?

0:07:45.6 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, so my journey began about seven years ago, and it was when I graduated college, I had just left the world, moved to Los Angeles, and I found myself in a dark place, I was dealing with depression, anxiety, panic attacks, so my body started like screaming at me, saying like, "Something is not right." And that's what kind of called me to have curiosity around psychedelics, I've heard that they were transformative and healing. And for me, I was like, "Okay, this cannot be the way of living my life, of not being in the place that I wanna be with myself." So I got curious and I went to a ceremony, and that's kind of where my world kind of flipped, and I really saw how these medicines give us an opportunity to look deeper within ourselves, to look at ourselves, at parts that we might not want to see otherwise, and it's been kind of a journey since then, but really has changed how I live my life, how I feel about myself, the self-love that I have, and most importantly, I think living from my heart instead of being in my mind.

0:08:53.2 Joseph Anew: I love that. So, you were anxious and depressed. You took some mushrooms and it cured everything and now you're perfect, right?

0:09:00.0 Adrian Lozano: No, no, I wish it... It was actually Ayahuasca was the first one I got into.

0:09:04.2 Joseph Anew: Oh, wow.

0:09:04.4 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, I dove straight to the deep end with that. And it wasn't like after that, for me, it wasn't as simple as like it took... Went to ceremony, was healed. It actually took a while for me to actually integrate and learn how to do the work that the medicine was teaching me, and at first my depression ended up getting worse, 'cause I didn't have support, I didn't have community, I didn't have structure on what to do after the ceremony, and that's when I realized how important that is and kind of why I do the work that I do today.

0:09:33.4 Joseph Anew: Yeah, man, I love that, Adrian. And what was so interesting, because we've spoke before is, your life, you explained to me that, it was really when your college career ended that this sort of depression, anxiety, this sort of transformational energy, well, that's what you did with it, for other people it might've brought them down, but you chose to chose to really seek support and a therapy and a modality that would work for you. But it really raises an interesting question or insight for me, and that's, in this modern world, we've heard the term like we're human doings, and not human beings. And it's interesting how in many ways, especially with, we're talking about education, but social media or Twitter or whatever it is, there's so many ways to keep busy and keep distracted, and from what I took from what you shared with me a week or so ago, in many ways I felt like, wow, education, it's this big lily pad that we're on and it feels so secure and so stable. But after four years, we gotta jump off that lily pad. And then it's sort of like, who am I? What am I doing here? What am I here to create? What do I do for a job? Like, things get real, real quick, and that's when it sounded to me, and you correct me if I'm wrong, that's where like you started to come through and there was this anxiety and this sort of, it was kind of in many ways created by the end of college. Is that accurate?

0:11:10.9 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, by the end of college, I had my first job out of college, and I saw the path that was laid out for me. And also I think what really helped me see that I didn't really want that was seeing others in my path that had been there longer and really counting down the days till their retirement, or really not happy with their jobs and lives and what they were doing, and I was able to see how I wanted to do more than that, I wanted to make an impact in the world, I wanted to have a purpose and really serve to others, but not in a way that I was doing it or that I was taught conventionally through college, which to me was kind of mindblowing. I almost wanted to go back and redo it again, but I was like, "Yeah, I'm not getting into debt to do that again." So it really was like seeing the path that was laid by society for me and not being happy with what that would look like for myself.

0:12:00.0 Joseph Anew: Yeah. And I'm sure there's some younger people in this audience and it's, yeah, you graduate college and you're like... I don't know what you studied, but it's like, maybe fixing people's computers isn't the way I'm gonna feel maximally fulfilled. Maybe it's not the thing that's gonna really feel like I put my stamp on the world. And so isn't it interesting though how some of those wake up calls and those moments lead us into a higher calling, and lead us to where we were supposed to be all along, perhaps.

0:12:29.0 Adrian Lozano: And I think for... And yeah, and I think for me, it was realizing that through my work with psychedelics, I was able to learn that I do have gifts, I do have gifts that were given to me that I didn't know through school, I wasn't able to tap into. I think that like psychedelics allow us to tap into our true inner strengths, our inner powers, that we can really be creative with who we are as human beings, not as what society wants us to be or who our parents want us to be. So I think that, for me, was the biggest thing was realizing that, once I started working with the medicine, and it helped me really learn who I was, learn what my gifts are, learn what I feel most interested in, that's when I got the, okay, this is... I'm onto something, and I really just wanted to dive deeper into that inner knowing for myself.

0:13:17.9 Joseph Anew: What were the hidden gifts like, if you don't mind sharing, like, what was the sort of person that was hiding behind all that programming that you sort of were able to let out of the cage, so to speak?

0:13:29.5 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, I think my biggest gift is living... Having a big open heart, and living from my heart. And I think I didn't know to do that, I was taught not to do that, not to tap into my emotions, not to tap into my inner landscape with myself, so it was really bringing people together, being able to live from my heart and teach others how to do that as well.

0:13:50.5 Joseph Anew: What's new since you sort of pulled yourself maybe out of the mind and into the heart a little bit, how has that impacted your daily life?

0:13:58.4 Adrian Lozano: I think for me, the biggest thing is being able to be present. And for me, that was not something that I knew how to do. I lived very, in my mind, I feel like I was a prisoner of my own mind. Like I had really bad social anxiety before. And I, it really... It kind of numbed me in a way where I wasn't able to fully be in the world, 'cause I was so caught up in my mind. And that's where my anxiety started kicking in, I would have panic attacks when I would be in certain social situations. So for me to live in my heart meant to be more present, to be in the here and now, to be present with the people that are in front of me, and live more in the being instead of doing. And I think that, a lot of people of my generation, because of technology, because of social media, because of just everything out there, all the information that we have, we're always consuming, always doing, and never really live in the hard space, so that has been the biggest thing that has changed for me, was being more present, doing things that bring me more joy, and instead of just being like a robot, how I felt before.

0:15:06.3 Joseph Anew: Yeah, no, and I think as you said, you're this generation, I feel I was somewhat fortunate, I didn't have a cell phone till I was like almost done with college. Facebook wasn't a thing till I was almost done with college. And I was kind of like the last, the last generation of old school. Like we had to carry books and stuff. And I think that social anxiety and an inability to connect with an actual person is not only a major problem now, but it's only in the COVID era. Like, my kids, my three-year-old went like two and a half years before he ever saw a person that wasn't my wife or I. So like, what is this... What did that look like? For someone that may be listening that has some social anxiety, particularly if they're between the ages of like 18 and 30, what does that look like, psychedelics aside, If you were gonna do it without psychedelics, Like what advice would you give somebody that does struggle with the face-to-face, that does struggle with the social anxiety, and getting out into the world, and that may be hiding behind a screen as much as possible these days?

0:16:16.8 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, I think for me, the biggest thing that helped me out was to realize that my mind was telling me all sorts of narratives, all sorts of things that weren't really true. And I didn't really know not to listen to that, so it kind of crippled me in a way where, it might've been due to past traumas that I had from my childhood, but I really... I didn't know how else to live. So really my nervous system was not regulated, so I was really... I was living in a place of fear, living in a place of freeze, that didn't allow me to just be, so I think learning how to regulate my nervous system, learning how to breathe, learning somatic work, and learning like where my anxiety is, how it shows up, where it's coming from, what story is it telling me, I think that was the biggest thing was learning to build a relationship with my anxiety in a way that I was able to turn to it and learn that, "Hey, maybe this is telling me something and maybe I don't have to listen to it." So once I slowly started to regulate my nervous system, and then also have courage, have courage to show up, have courage to put myself in these situations where I was in the room and I was speaking, I was talking to people always out of my comfort zone. I learned that, for me, I was not growing within my comfort zone.

0:17:30.0 Adrian Lozano: And it's really hard when you have social anxiety and you do wanna step outside of it, and when it's really hard when you wanna be a leader, when you wanna talk in front of others, but you're so crippled by this part of you that doesn't allow you to move past that. So I think for me it was learning how to work with it, and also just being courageous, stepping into it and then seeing like, oh, wow, once I started doing this, like people weren't throwing eggs at me or laughing at me, or all the things that my mind was telling me would happen. And then slowly I started to realize that, okay, you know what, this is not as scary as it seems. And I think that that's when things started changing for me, I started living with freedom instead of being held back from my own self.

0:18:12.4 Joseph Anew: Yeah, yeah, it's like a positive reinforcement thing, you step out of that comfort zone, and I think anytime we step out of our comfort zone, it's often very rewarding. People remember the one time they went whitewater rafting 25 years ago, but they've deleted so much of the other stuff. There's this call to step out of that comfort zone, and the unfortunate thing is on the flip side is, if we never do that, our comfort zone tends to get smaller and smaller, and more and more things give us anxiety, if we don't take that step and have that courage. One of my, actually past facilitators, and he's an MD, He says, "FEAR, False Evidence Appearing Real."

0:19:00.1 Adrian Lozano: I love that.

0:19:00.2 Joseph Anew: And I think that that courage is something that sort of entering that positive feedback loop is something that may be psychedelics have, would you say kind of greased the groove a little bit for you? Made it easier than it would've been if you hadn't sort of explored that part of yourself?

0:19:16.1 Adrian Lozano: Definitely, and I think when I first started working with psychedelics there would often be difficult experiences, because at the time my anxiety was so bad that I would have like panic attacks in ceremony. And really for me it was learning to step into that, learning how to surrender, and then I was able to see all the different stories in my mind, it would be like a hundred miles per hour, but I was really learning... And the biggest thing was learning how to breathe, that's the most, for me, the most powerful tool in a psychedelic experience is the breath, the body, coming back. So for me, it was like being in a really uncomfortable place, learning how to work through that, how to navigate the fear, how to surrender to it. And then seeing on the other side, like, oh wow, like it actually wasn't that bad, and I became stronger. Things didn't become easier, I just became stronger throughout my journey, and seeing how psychedelics really put that in the forefront, and I think that's what the medicine wanted me to work on, and really work through. And that's what it kind of empowered me to become stronger and to become more resilient.

0:20:20.2 Joseph Anew: I love that. Things didn't get easier, I just got stronger. That's like, that sounds like a Chuck Norris joke. You remember those? [laughter]

0:20:26.8 Adrian Lozano: Yeah.

0:20:30.0 Joseph Anew: No, I love that. And then of course, you're a graduate of one of the first cohorts of our certification program, which is a program, I was in the third cohort, I think, were you in the first cohort?

0:20:41.0 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, I was in the first one.

0:20:42.6 Joseph Anew: So it's such a big deal to Paul is this self-regulation, it's one of our five pillars that we teach and this finding, whether it's the breath or just becoming aware, and that self-regulation, it sounds like, you mentioned you jumped into the deep end first, and I do want to ask you a question on that, but as it relates to self-regulation, like what is that... You've said it a little bit, but like in a social situation, I guess, if there's anything more we can dive into there, what does that, what does that mean to you?

0:21:16.2 Adrian Lozano: To me, when I think about that, it's almost like I think of the word self-soothing. Like what are, if my nervous system does become regulated, what can I do to help bring it down? So for me, it's breathing, moving somatically, or even telling myself positive reinforcements that can get me out of that mind loop. So it's really tending to myself, letting myself know, "Hey, you're not in danger. You're safe, you're strong, you're amazing." All these things that I was never told when I was young. And I tell myself that, and I also, I breathe, I check in with my body, I notice where it's at, how it's showing up, what does it feel like. And I really allow myself to move through that in a way that before I didn't know how to do, and I think before I would numb myself, and I would disassociate and become outside of my body. So that became a whole thing too, so being able to self-soothe myself in situations where I thought it was a fight or flight mode, that's what kind of has helped me.

0:22:13.5 Joseph Anew: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the piece, right? Is this feeling into the body. I think when people have anxiety that they're so... It's so between the ears, behind the eyes, that they don't say like, "What are my feet feeling? What does my body feel like? Where is my breath going? What is... " That sort of tuning in I think is just so important, and I think that's where a lot of people, even outside the psychedelic space could really benefit from, but I think as you get into this work, whether it's before or after, I think stepping into that is just such a powerful tool, and it doesn't just help with anxiety, it's about, just about everything really, connects us with our intuition ultimately, which is sort of the most powerful force we probably have.

0:23:05.5 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, definitely, I agree, and I think that's also... I'm glad you brought that up 'cause once I was able to regulate and not be so anxious, I was able to tap into my intuition, and that was like my North star, and that's where I was really able to become the person that I am today. I strongly feel that.

0:23:22.7 Joseph Anew: And I mentioned I wanted to come back to you starting at the top of the food chain there with the with Ayahuasca, as a coach in this space, you host retreats, you do integration coaching. If you were coaching you, Adrian, like what... Where would you have started with Ayahuasca? How would you treat yourself as a client if you walked in your own door?

0:23:46.0 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, and I definitely will not start with Ayahuasca, that to me was really diving that deep end, and I did. It was sink or swim. I almost sank for a bit. So I would now, as a coach, really start people off slowly and I, with microdosing, breathwork, meditation, practices that are going to help someone really ease into it, and kind of have the tools to support them if they were to go on a deeper journey. I think for me, and I had done no work prior to my ayahuasca experience, I didn't know anything about meditation, breathwork, or any kind of tools to help me. So when I got into that experience, it shook my core, and it kind of really disrupted everything to where I didn't have the tools to regulate, I didn't have the tools to help me move through that, to integrate that. So life became a little bit more confusing for me afterwards.

0:24:37.2 Joseph Anew: Yeah, and I think this is... We should definitely, kind of expand on this. My, just a quick note on my personal story is, I've been doing health wellness, fitness for 20 years. Immediately prior to stepping into psychedelic work, I had already been teaching breathwork for seven or eight years. I'd been doing cold plunges for about that time. We had done three real serious years of Kundalini yoga, living in LA, working with a guy, a teacher. And when I first made the decision, after a sober life in my 30s, to step into this, I immediately, on the back end was like, I can't imagine trying to integrate this without those 20 years, without having this relationship with yoga, this relationship with cold, this relationship with fitness, this relationship with running and breath and all of these things, so when you'd say, you stepped into Ayahuasca first, immediately my mind goes, "Holy smokes." Maybe more power to you, but godspeed. But I am curious, what that... And I know you said you wouldn't do it again, but what did that look like on the back end?

0:25:49.7 Joseph Anew: And I guess one more piece of context here is, part of what I kind of really want to see from the psychedelic space, and one of the reasons I'm here with the Psychedelic Coaching Institute now and supporting this mission is because I do want people to find proper guidance and ethical guidance and have a lot of intention, which is just so in line with Paul's mission, of course, is, that's why I'm here is because I do see the power of these medicines, but I also see the increasing prevalence of people stepping in the deep end.

0:26:24.3 Joseph Anew: And struggling to integrate when oftentimes integration really is about stepping into the right ceremony. You could be Sigmund Freud and not be able to integrate someone that just sat up off the couch and jumped into an ayahuasca ceremony. So, what did that, Adrian, aftermath look like for you, and specifically, how did you like pull yourself up, which I imagine you needed to do following that, like, total blast off?

0:26:56.3 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, so it actually, for me, it was a process of two years of really learning how to work with the medicine and to learn how to swim essentially. So when I first went to my first ceremony, I came with... I went with a group that flew in from Columbia, and I did two ceremonies with them, and then for me, because I didn't know what integration was, I didn't know about intention or any of that, after the ceremony, every... The... Like I was really having the afterglow where I felt amazing, I felt great, I felt like everything was good, and I was healed, and all my problems went away. But once the afterglow started to wear off, that's when the weeds started to grow back. That's when I started realizing like, oh, like the... My shit's still here. Like, ceremony does... Can only show you the way, it can only help you see things that you might not be able to see before. But because I wasn't integrating, my depression actually got worse. And I started going back to ceremony help... Like trying to help myself heal and thinking that me doing the work was going to ceremony, so I think I went to like three more, and the same thing would happen. I would go to ceremony, I would think I was healed, spiritually bypass a lot of the actual work that I needed to do, and then find myself in a darker place.

0:28:18.7 Adrian Lozano: So it was after I think I, for what I attribute to my life being my rock bottom, where I felt like I had nowhere else to go that I was like, "Okay, this is gonna be my last shot in ceremony."

0:28:29.2 Adrian Lozano: And I had what I call to myself like an ego dissolution, ego death experience where I felt like I was gonna die. And I really became really scared and frightened, and I was being really stubborn and I didn't wanna let go. And once I finally did let go, the medicine told me, "Okay, you need to do the work. You need to integrate. You've been here before, we've told you what to do, you're not doing it. I don't want you in ceremony anymore, and, until you do show up for yourself." So for me, after that experience, that meant, okay, finally going to yoga, that was the biggest thing for me, learning how to practice, move my body, learn how to breathe. Then I started going to therapy, then I started working with a coach, and little by little, all of these little things started happening where I was finally able to see shifts happening, starting to able to see where my trauma came from, learn how to move with my body, learn how to move my breath, and really anchor myself into my own essence, to my own being, and for me, that's where my healing journey began, was two years after my first ceremony, where if I probably would've done that before differently, I would've had more success, "A little bit earlier" and not suffered as much. But I think for me, it was important to go through that because that was what really taught me how to work with the medicines, how... And how integration is so important and really how to hold space for others.

0:29:50.2 Joseph Anew: I'm thinking back, I interviewed a couple of times, Dr. Stuart McGill, who's like probably the world's foremost back expert. Like some stud athlete hurts their back, they're probably gonna go see Stuart McGill. He is like... He's written the book on the low back. And he said that a huge amount of low back surgeries are unnecessary. And what he recommends instead are what he calls virtual surgeries. And what it is, is you take somebody that has back pain, and it's October 10th right now, and you've got surgery on November 6th, and beginning November 6th, you're gonna take all these days off work, you're gonna go to physical therapy, you're gonna do breathwork, you're gonna take walks in nature, you're gonna reduce your stress, you're going to eat clean. But the surgery is pretend, it's just a date on the calendar, but what he does is he has people do all the things that they would have done if the surgery was in fact real, and it sounds like while medicines can provide this massive awakening, and this massive shakeup, and really get us... Clear our fields, and really connect us with our purpose, so it's like the psychedelic powers are incredible. But what's interesting is after you kind of went back to the well and weren't doing the work, it's like you finally got that message, but isn't it so interesting that you went in to all the things that somebody would do if they were opposed to psychedelics, right?

0:31:31.6 Joseph Anew: So I love this sort of picture, that psychedelics are this incredibly powerful tool, but they are that, they're a tool that does need these other pieces of the puzzle, and it's not just the ceremony.

0:31:44.1 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, and I think a lot of people don't know that. And people think that going to a ceremony, they're going to change who they are, change their life and all that, and while that could be true, it's what we do outside of ceremony, that's where the work is, that's where the ceremony really begins, is once we step outside of that space, what are we going to do to integrate? How are we gonna weave in whatever the medicine showed us in a way that is going to change us day in and day out? 'Cause the afterglow is gonna wear off. And then the, like I said, the weeds can start to grow, unless we're tending to that, and having practices, tools that can support us on our normal day to day, because it's not... It's not really like we can go to ceremony every single time, and that's not... It's not... I don't think it's meant for that purpose, it's meant to teach us, to show us, and then it's up to us to do the work.

0:32:32.7 Joseph Anew: So Adrian, and you mentioned microdosing and I... That was personally, where I began this work myself, and so how do you, what is microdosing... What does that mean to you? What does that do for you? What, how does that support your clients? And which medicines do you prefer in terms of microdosing?

0:32:56.8 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, and I'll also say that, I didn't know much about Microdosing before CCP1. Like that's kind of a big part of what I do now, so I'm grateful that Paul is really spearheading microdosing and just being an advocate of the, of power of working in with the medicine in a small gradual way. So for me, microdosing has been a safe, a gentle way to, for people to work with the medicine in a way that is kind of like learning how to build a relationship, learning how to work with it. And I work with psilocybin and LSD, mostly psilocybin. So I've had many clients that have no intention of being in ceremony, or are afraid of psychedelics. Also, some clients that are older that might have a experience with psychedelics that weren't so in the context that we're using it now.

0:33:49.6 Joseph Anew: Right. Right, right.

0:33:51.5 Adrian Lozano: So with folks, with microdosing, I tell them like, "Look, you can do this in your normal day-to-day. This is meant... It's a tool to help you become more present, to become more aware and more conscious, and really build a connection. It can also be a good bridge to the ceremony to and from that can help with integration." So folks really like that, how it's safe, it's gentle, it's not so disrupting your normal day-to-day. And I've seen some of my clients that depending on where they're at, but they can see almost instantly, of working with microdosing, how they're able to be less anxious, be less depressed, tap into their creativity, tap into flow states, and it's really profound how microdosing can really have that shift on people. And I think that's where we're... That's, the psychedelic movement is kind of moving towards, because it's more accessible. People can do it anywhere, they could... They don't have to go to ceremony, or they don't have to do a special dieta, or fly out or anywhere, they can do it from their home right now.

0:34:57.4 Joseph Anew: Yeah, I love that, and I think, what's so great about it too, in the world of extremes, right? Like these substances, obviously, set and setting, right? And so where these substances have been demonized and largely elicit for the last several decades, there's a huge unclear relationship, right? So in other words, like if somebody is, believes these things are bad, and they're illegal, and there's so much programming around that. Like stepping into a ceremony is a very big jump, but creating an avenue where people can, in an extremely controlled, even sub-perceptible means, begin to taste what it's like to be in this, and feel that chemistry going to work in our own minds, it seems like an incredible gift and maybe in many ways the path forward for people to begin to kind of show people the forest through the trees in these once banned substances, and still banned largely, right?

0:36:05.0 Adrian Lozano: Yeah.

0:36:07.6 Joseph Anew: It's a safer experimentation process when the dose is tiny.

0:36:11.7 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, and I think people also, the biggest thing that it builds trust, it builds the relationship with the medicine. So they're able to see, as they're becoming more present, as they're becoming more connected to theirselves, to their intuition, they're learning that, "Hey, this is something that is helping me, and this is something that can help me be, whatever my intentions are to help me move towards that." So I think when people do microdose, and they may or may not want to go to ceremony, but after... The folks that microdose before ceremony that have no experience with psychedelics, feel a lot more grounded, feel a lot more supportive, they've already done some work beforehand, they're regulating their nervous system, they're tapping into their intuition, being more present, so that when they do decide to go to ceremony, they feel a lot more equipped.

0:37:00.3 Joseph Anew: They already have a relationship with the medicine, and so it's not this left field thing, it's this thing that they've experienced and benefit from already, so it makes total sense that they would just be able to surrender. You mentioned surrendering. They'd be able to surrender and sort of sink into the experience so much more as opposed to like kind of having one eye open the whole time.

0:37:22.2 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, so that's why I say, for me, now knowing about microdosing and doing all this work, it still... I mean, I didn't know any better back then, so going to an ayahuasca ceremony, that was like, oh man. I would not do it that way, but hey, that's what helped me be where I'm at today.

0:37:43.4 Joseph Anew: Yeah, well, hey, you jumped off the cliff and you made it so. So Adrian, I would love to explore as well being in the first cohort of the certification program, I would love to hear about, you mentioned a second ago, just a little bit of what the program, how it changed your trajectory as a professional and a coach. But I would love to dive into some more about your experience within the certification program and how that contributed as well to the work you're doing today.

0:38:16.7 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, I think the biggest thing was community and networking. Prior to this, I really didn't know others that were professionals in the psychedelic field. I knew psychonauts or my friends or people that have experience. But not, no one that was committed to working with psychedelics in a professional way. And I still talk to people from my cohort. They're some of my best friends. I've been able to build community, and through Paul too, I really was able to know that this is a space that is, is professional, that people are experts in this field, and this is not something that people just do for fun recreationally. So for me it was realizing and meeting all sorts of people in the field that are doing great things in the field too. So I think the community aspect was one of the best parts of the program, 'cause prior to that, I didn't really know people. So once I was able to tap into that community and then collaborate with others too, so I've done retreats with some of my cohorts. I've gone to retreats through the Third Wave that I met, through an organization called 1heart, And that changed a lot for me too. So I feel like that was the beginning step to really being a professional in the psychedelic field.

0:39:32.3 Joseph Anew: Yeah, And it's a little bit, even a lot of the work we're doing, knowing you're not alone. Knowing that there are people out there, especially, because we're non-clinical, non-medical. And so there's this incredible momentum in, with MAPS and all the things that are happening on the legality side, and people healing PTSD and sexual traumas, and all this incredible work that's happening in the more white-walled clinical medical space. But then we know that a massive percentage of the psychedelic use that's occurring is for people that are just trying to reduce a little social anxiety, or be a little bit more productive at work, or be a better husband, or be a better father or mother. And that's where we come in, and so this feeling like you're not alone in that, and that there are ethical bounds, and ethical communities, and professional standards, and ways of doing this even though we are all... We are in this Wild West underground space. Yeah, maybe would you say it gave you confidence in the work you're doing, and clarity, and obviously that sense of community is like gasoline?

0:40:39.2 Adrian Lozano: For sure, I think confidence was the biggest thing, 'cause before CCP, I was supporting others, but not in a way where I had foundational knowledge of what I was doing. So it was by intuition. And I think having that confidence, having that knowledge, having the framework of how to support others with psychedelics, and that's what allowed me to tap into it and to be like, "Hey, you know what, I do know what I'm doing. I do have a foundation, I do have a framework." And that's when others started taking me more serious as well. So I think that to me was pivotal to, and it was, in 2020, it's about three years ago, so a lot has changed in the psychedelic field, but I'm glad that I was able to get into it before. Part of the first cohort for this program, so that to me was, I think, I'm glad I got in when I got in early, 'cause then I've been able to see how it's changed, how it's transformed, how we speak about psychedelics is a lot different than how it was back then, three years ago even.

0:41:36.6 Joseph Anew: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the last three years is, more progress in the last three years than the last 30 years, right?

0:41:42.4 Adrian Lozano: Exactly. Yeah. So it's pretty exciting times that we're in, just seeing where it's going and how it's going to continue to go, but also that we are responsible to be ethical, like you said, that's a big thing. There's a lot of... And I've heard a lot of things in psychedelic space where there are unethical facilitators or practitioners that are not really in this for the right reasons. And that can make the whole field, can tarnish it, so it's really up to us to be stewards of this medicine and in a way that is safe and practical for others to access.

0:42:17.3 Joseph Anew: Yeah. I love that, Adrian, and let me ask you this, and somewhat of a personal question, I guess, but safety. There's this, and of course there's physical safety and psychological safety and all the different types of safety, but in what ways would you say, if you had never done a certification program, in what ways are your clients safer now in your care? What learnings, what takeaways, what guidance specifically that we instruct in the certification program has made you a, I would say a better, I don't know if better is the right word, a more integrated or more aware guide, facilitator, coach, that has enhanced the safety of your client's experience?

0:43:09.4 Adrian Lozano: I think one of the biggest thing is knowing that this medicine is not for everyone. That as much as people want to work with it, there are certain capabilities that someone should not be working with the medicine, I really didn't know about all of that before going to CCP1. So learning that set and setting is important, but also that really being careful when you work with someone is also, are they a right fit for this type of work? And I think just because people are excited or because they want to work with you, it's also a relationship that us as coaches have to know, like, "Hey, is this person the right person to be doing this type of work?" Or even, if, is this even in my scope? If someone is coming at me with things that I know are outside of my scope, I can refer them to someone that I know that, hey, this is their specialty, or they work specifically with these type of people, and I'm not the best person to work with them. And I don't think I knew that before to have a network of practitioners that have their all, all of their expertise. And so, if that's not me, then it's my duty to know, "Hey, you know what? This is not within my scope of work, and I can refer you to someone else."

0:44:14.0 Joseph Anew: Yeah. That's a huge, especially, there's so much trauma in the world. And I think a lot of people, a lot of facilitators, they don't find out someone has trauma till they've already given them the mushrooms. And that creates a very dangerous and scary situation for anybody, for both parties, and so, yeah, I love that. And Adrian, in your work, high dose experience work, do you work with ayahuasca or mushrooms or, I didn't ask, do you specialize in a specific medicine now?

0:44:45.7 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, psilocybin. So I do my own personal healing with ayahuasca, and I have a connection to that medicine the most. But when I hold space for others, it's with psilocybin.

0:44:56.0 Joseph Anew: Okay, cool. And what would you say, for someone listening, from an experiential perspective, and I guess a coaching perspective, how would you describe the differences between those two medicines?

0:45:11.9 Adrian Lozano: Oh, man. So in ways they are similar, like I've had people, and me myself, where I've worked with both of them, and sometimes it's, I feel like I'm on ayahuasca when I'm on mushrooms. But I would say ayahuasca is more of a purgative medicine, and she's like a spiritual doctor, I say she 'cause she has a motherly, energy spirit. So in that essence, it can be... It's a lot more heavy on the body for folks. There is purging involved there, and that could mean different things in ayahuasca, it's not just throwing up. But, so I would say with Ayahuasca, it's a lot more somatic, and it could be a lot more intense for folks than psilocybin. And also with ayahuasca, I have seen how people can... It could be a lot for folks and people can get really have an outwardly difficult experience. And for that medicine, I would say, you definitely need to have a really close relationship with that medicine, and even go and study in the Amazon with indigenous people who have been working with the medicine for a long time. That's not something that I feel called to do, which is why I'm not serving that. And not everyone does go that route, but I think it is unsafe to do so, to work with that medicine unless you have a really close relationship, not just with yourself, but holding space for others and working with it in that way. And with psilocybin though, you still have to have a relationship with the medicine, it's not as, for me, as intense or as intrusive as ayahuasca.

0:46:47.3 Joseph Anew: Well, that's 'cause you remember your first ayahuasca, and now you take mushrooms, five years later, you're like, "Oh, this is nothing."

0:46:51.3 Adrian Lozano: Yeah. I mean they're still very powerful and profound and wise teachers, mushrooms, but not like I was in the deep end with the grandmother.

0:47:02.3 Joseph Anew: Right. Well, I think, when I look at the modern world, I often think about, what are, and this obviously comes from our certification program as well, is, what's the right medicine? You mentioned it earlier, what's the right medicine for this individual in the context they're presenting, with the previous diagnoses, or the medications, or the tendencies that I'm seeing before me? And like I've alluded a few times, we live in this modern world, we're on screens all the time, we have a relatively low amount of social engagement. We often don't spend enough time in nature. We don't often see the sunrise. We probably don't sleep that well. So there's all of these ailments of modern life, and sometimes when I think about ayahuasca, or mushrooms, it's like, wow, these are, call them ancient indigenous plants that were really utilized for very, very earthly problems, in traditional societies. Very... Problems in people that were extremely connected to the planet. That were extremely connected to nature. And what is that, when someone that is significantly disconnected from the planet, they're working 50 hours a week, et cetera. What is that... What does that risk profile look like? How is that mismatch? I know it works a lot, but for people that it doesn't work with, that don't resonate, to what extent is that disconnection from the planet to blame for the earthliness or the power that they're just not accustomed to coming from such a modernized existence?

0:48:48.1 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, and I think these medicines have, like you said, they've been here for thousands of years, used by indigenous ancestors, and I think now there's... We're starting to go back to that because there is that disconnection between us, mother nature, and spirit, all of that, so I think we're having this third wave of psychedelics, which essentially plant medicine to help us come back to that, to help us come back to how we used to be, 'cause things are not working out now. We have a lot of people that have mental health issues, anxiety, depression, loneliness, all of that is at an all time high, it's really allowing us to come back to the ways that we, how we used to live. Being more in nature, being more in community, being more connected, stepping away from the screens. I think that is what the medicine is here to show us how to do. And people are now waking up to that, to saying that, "Hey, these are not drugs, these are not... " I mean, compared to alcohol and other things that are legal, these are things that are really, can have profound impact, profound healing, profound connection to self, to spirit, to community, that I think people are now becoming more aware of that. But it's silly 'cause our indigenous ancestors knew this all along. This was a way of life for them. So I'm happy that we're in this time where people are coming back to that, where we're starting to see that this is very much needed, and this medicine is not going anywhere.

0:50:16.0 Adrian Lozano: The mycelial network has grown and is growing to where it is. The underground movement is now going to start to make its way and hopefully soon enough it will be more accessible for everyone out there. But some of us, like myself, I did not have the time or... I didn't have the patience to... Or I really couldn't wait for things to get better in the above ground world because I was really struggling, and I really needed help at the time, and that was the only thing I knew to help. I didn't want to get on antidepressants. And for me, that was my rock bottom, so I'm glad that I did have the courage to step into the unknown, but now that those of us that have done that can pave the way for others as well.

0:51:00.7 Joseph Anew: Yeah. And again, shepherd, you stepped into the unknown and then stepped into it again, and then again, and so this like, this now you're able, from that learning, from all that experience, you can now help people shepherd... You can shepherd them through a... And I don't want to use the word easier, but easier path into this work, with very clear direction, because nothing teaches you like challenge and adversity, and even making mistakes.

0:51:34.9 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, and I think for me, that was the biggest thing I realized, 'cause when I first started working with plant medicine, it was not easy for me. And it was very difficult, and like I said, things got more difficult before they got easier. But I think it was really to go deep, within my own healing process, to go deep, to learn how to work with the psyche medicine, to learn how they're teachers, how they can show us things, and how to build a relationship with them. So now I do have a strong connection with them. And when I speak to others, when I help them, when I help guide them through this process, I can speak with confidence 'cause I have been there, you can only take someone as far as you've gone with yourself. So I'm really glad that though it was difficult and really dark at some points, I'm glad I was able to go through that. I also know what that feels like, so when someone is going through that themselves, I can sit with them in the darkness as well, 'cause I've been through that in my own journey.

0:52:29.2 Joseph Anew: There's nothing more valuable, I love that you can only take someone as far or as deep as you've gone yourself. And I think in coaching, it's especially, it's just so true. And it's that intuitive knowing, that experience just powers our intuition and really informs the work that we do, and that's why we've been talking a lot about different ways and different programs and things that we're doing here at the Psychedelic Coaching Institute, and it's so experiential, increasingly, when we think about how we're going to work with coaches in the future, it's like, well, how do we add more experiential, more medicine, more intensive, more plant experiences, and none psychedelic experiences as well just to make sure that our coaches, apart from learning the textbook stuff, how do we know that they're truly fit to be guides, to truly fit to be coaches?

0:53:26.6 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, I think especially when working with psychedelics, it is hard to sit with someone if you haven't quite done the work with the medicine yourself. And I have met people that don't have a lot of experience with medicine, and I wouldn't recommend it to them or sit with them because it, it really... It's just something that, it's a learned experience, and you learn by doing it, it's not something like how, if someone that's a therapist can work with people that have depression when not having been depressed themselves, but working with plant medicine is different because it is something that you can't really explain to someone how the process of it is, how the experience is, it's like telling someone colors that they can't see. So that does worry me when some people are like, "Hey, I really want to work with psychedelics. I've sat with it once and I have got a calling to work with them." It's like, okay, well, how long have you been working with them? I'm not gatekeeping here in any way, but it's really just being wary of those that don't have quite the connection, the experience of working with the medicine in a way where they can best support others. And that's how people, it could be re-traumatizing to work with someone that is not fully equipped to work with the medicine in a way that would be better if they had more experience with it.

0:54:39.6 Joseph Anew: Jon Krakauer wrote a book in 1996, in 1996 a bunch of people got killed on Mount Everest, and there was a lot of reasons for that. But he was talking about this one group, I think it was from South Africa, and they came to Mount Everest with this guide who had faked a bunch of his resume.

0:54:58.0 Adrian Lozano: Oh wow.

0:55:01.6 Joseph Anew: Imagine you hire this guy to take you up Mount Everest and he's never been to 30,000 feet himself. He's never, all this stuff on his resume was made up and not factual. And when they got to base camp, someone was like, "Fact-check it," or however that you did that in '96, I don't think you had like a smartphone on Mount Everest or anything like that. But yeah, and when you were telling me, when you were sharing that story, I'm like, yeah. It's like if I'm going to climb Mount Everest, I'm going to make sure my guide's been there not once or twice, but like this is like a 50th time, or her 50th time being up there. I want to make sure that if a storm rolls in, we run out of oxygen, the rope breaks, the snowsuit rips, I don't know, you want to make sure someone's prepared for absolutely anything. And there's no, no substitute for experience, no matter what.

0:55:48.3 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, someone posted the other day like, "I want my guide to have gone through hell and back in a psychedelic experience. If not, I don't want them."

0:56:04.0 Joseph Anew: Yeah. You know what's funny is I was talking to a friend recently and he said he took 15 grams of mushrooms. I was like, "Oh."

0:56:09.0 Adrian Lozano: Oh my God.

0:56:10.7 Joseph Anew: That's what I want from my guide, I want someone that's had 15 grams of mushroom.

0:56:14.8 Adrian Lozano: I haven't done that myself, but I'm also smart enough not to do that.

0:56:19.4 Joseph Anew: Oh gosh, Adrian. Hey, this has been awesome, brother. Hey, what didn't we tap into? What else would you love to share with our audience here? Maybe unique stuff you're working on? I know you're doing retreats, you're doing coaching, integration support, how can we tie this up in the next couple of minutes?

0:56:38.2 Adrian Lozano: Yeah. I think one of the new projects that I'm working on that I'm currently in week five of, I started a group microdose program. And that has been something that I've been wanting to do for a while, but microdosing is a very personal experience, and I was starting to work with clients and see, community is medicine. So I started this program to have a community of folks that are microdosing together, and are integrating together, and having the tools and really just having community. And I think that's been the biggest thing that, where I've been most excited about is, in this program. And I want to... I'm going to keep doing it 'cause I really can see the benefit of having the structure, the framework, and really being intentional with microdosing. I think in the beginning of my practice, I started supporting others with microdosing, but not really having the intentional support behind it, the framework and the proper protocols and all that. So in the beginning I think folks would microdose and often stop because they wouldn't really see a big change in the beginning, and I would tell 'em like, "Hey, microdosing is a process." It could be boring compared to macrodosing, but it's really having that framework that can set someone up for success. And I've seen big shifts with people that have been working with microdosing and that's where a lot of my energy is, is 'cause I do believe microdosing is the...

0:58:06.8 Adrian Lozano: Well, it's already happening now, but the future of psychedelics, but it really, for me it's like putting that community aspect into it as well, of having a container where folks can go through this together, and that's what really is exciting for me right now.

0:58:23.1 Joseph Anew: Yeah, that's neat. So is that, so you meet on Zoom regularly or what does that look like?

0:58:28.4 Adrian Lozano: Yeah, yeah, we have weekly calls on Zoom. And everyone has different protocols that they're on, and different experiences, and can all relate to each other. And also I, the biggest thing for me too is I really tell people, teach them to learn the language of the mushrooms, to learn how they communicate with us, but how we can communicate with them, and how that can show up with microdosing. And also let them know that with microdosing, it's not only about having the desired effects that people have, the creativity, the flow states, it could also bring up emotions, bring up feelings that might need to be processed first. And sometimes those feelings or emotions can or may not be desired effects. So I do really emphasize that in folks, and in the beginning, I did tell them that, and then as it was happening to them, like, "Hey, I feel really angry when I microdose." And it was good 'cause then we can all see... We can also support them in that, like, "Okay, well, what is the medicine trying to teach you? What is it trying to help you see that you may not be able to see?" And they were able to work with that anger, and that was an opportunity to work with emotions that they could have before been not wanting to work with. So I think the, so for me it's also telling people of, learning how to build a relationship, learning how to communicate and how they communicate with us.

0:59:51.0 Joseph Anew: Yeah. I love that. And those types of reports are always interesting, when you hear, "I'm in a bad mood on mushrooms." "I get tired on micro doses." All of these common things, and it's like, oh wow, well, I don't think the mushrooms are telling you to take a nap, I think they're saying that there's something that's tired of trying to come through, or like, we got to let that anger out, or whatever it is.

1:00:13.8 Adrian Lozano: And sometimes it is that actually, 'cause there are people, that's a common effect that people feel is like, "Hey, I'm feeling tired when I microdose." But then I ask 'em like, okay, they're like, "I want to be creative, but I just... When I do it, I'm feeling tired," and I ask 'em like, "How's your rest? How's your sleep?" "Oh, well, I'm not sleeping much. I'm sleeping like five hours, hooked on coffee." It's like, well before you need to tap in... Before you're able to tap in to your creativity, the mushroom, like your body needs rest, so the mushrooms could amplify the need for that, and we can't bypass that, and it's not going to just make us be more creative or allow us to be more productive, if our body is requiring... It needs rest, so it's going to scream a little bit louder, and it's up to us to make the, to integrate, that whatever's it's trying to show us.

1:01:00.7 Joseph Anew: Yeah. Love that, Adrian. Well hey brother, where could people find you?

1:01:02.8 Adrian Lozano: My website is lozanoflows.com. L-O-Z-A-N-O Flows. And then, my Instagram is lozano.flows.

1:01:12.0 Joseph Anew: Love it, man. And your website's beautiful. I was on it a week or so ago.

1:01:15.9 Adrian Lozano: Oh, thank you.

1:01:17.1 Joseph Anew: Did a really nice job. I almost signed up.

1:01:22.0 Adrian Lozano: Cool. Well, I'll see you there then.

1:01:23.9 Joseph Anew: All right brother. Wonderful speaking. Thank you so much for carving out the time here for the second time, and...

1:01:31.8 Adrian Lozano: Sure.

1:01:31.9 Joseph Anew: It's just been a pleasure man. And so, I'll talk to you soon, Adrian.

1:01:34.5 Adrian Lozano: All right, thank you very much. Thanks for having me on.

1:01:39.9 Joseph Anew: Hey listeners, Joseph here. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Adrian Lozano. Remember, you can go deeper into this episode with full show notes, transcripts, and any links we mention today, just follow the link in the description. And if you want to get more episodes from us each week, be sure to follow The Psychedelic Podcast wherever you're listening right now. Or you can like and subscribe to Third Waves Channel on YouTube. Thank you for tuning in to The Psychedelic Podcast. We'll see you next week.

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