Moms on Mushrooms: Healing, Community, & Education for Mothers

Podcast Highlights

• Tracey’s healing journey with psilocybin and microdosing that led to Moms on Mushrooms.
• The unique needs and challenges for moms considering psychedelics.
• Tracey on opening up to her about her own psychedelic use.
• Reclaiming rites of passage in healthy, informed ways.
• What Moms on Mushrooms offers its members.
• On microdosing during pregnancy and breastfeeding.
• Microdosing and postpartum depression: a recipe for success.
• Tracey’s vision for the future: advocacy, education, and healing.
• Connect with Moms on Mushrooms.

Show Links

1. Moms On Mushrooms
2. Book, A Really Good Day by Ayelet Waldman
3. Third Wave's Mushroom Grow Kit
4. The Pump and Dump Show
5. Band of Mothers Podcast

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Podcast Transcript

0:00:00.3 Paul Austin: Hey folks. Welcome back to The Psychedelic Podcast by Third Wave. Today, I am speaking with Tracey Tee, the founder of Moms on Mushrooms.

0:00:12.1 Tracey Tee: My prayer is that M.O.M.really is just the central place for you to have a safe container to learn about not only plant medicine in general, but microdosing specifically, and apply it to your life in a safe and intentional way through communicating and doing this in communion with other moms, and that's where I am.

0:00:34.3 PA: Welcome to The Psychedelic Podcast by Third Wave. Audio mycelium connecting you to the luminaries and thought leaders of the psychedelic renaissance. We bring you illuminating conversations, with scientists, therapists, entrepreneurs, coaches, doctors and shamanic practitioners, exploring how we can best you psychedelic medicine to accelerate personal healing, peak performance and collective transformation.

0:01:11.5 PA: Hey listeners, I'm so excited to have Tracey Tee on the podcast today. We talk about moms who take mushrooms. Tracey has generated quite a bit of publicity as of late about her relationship with mushrooms, how they've transformed her life as a mother, and we haven't really talked about this topic in depth on the podcast yet.

0:01:33.3 PA: We've talked about it here and there, but we haven't really gone into all of the considerations that moms must confront if working with psilocybin mushrooms. For example, we talked about, Can moms who are pregnant microdose? What about breastfeeding moms? Can they microdose? How do we talk about psilocybin mushrooms or generally psychedelics with our kids at home?

0:01:55.9 PA: So if you're a mom or if you know a mom, which all of us do, I really think you'll... You'll dig this episode and come away with a few takeaways. And I would encourage you to share this episode with mothers in your life. Mothers who are considering psychedelics for healing, mothers who are considering microdosing to help with postpartum depression or just to generally help with an overall sort of vitality in life. This was a really engaging and exciting episode, and I think you're gonna have a lot of insights from this one. However, before we dive into today's episode, a word from our sponsors.

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0:04:46.3 PA: Beckley Retreats received an award for best psychedelic retreat of the Year in 2022, co-founded by Amanda Feilding, the queen of the psychedelic renaissance. This retreat builds on decades of research from the renowned Beckley Foundation, a think tank, and NGO that Feilding founded, Feilding has collaborated with leading scientists and institutions around the world for over 20 years on a wide range of scientific projects investigating the effects of psychedelic substances on brain function, subjective experience and clinical symptoms. The retreats are one of the most comprehensive psilocybin experiences in the world. Run by trusted and experienced facilitators, it's a six-day retreat in Jamaica with an 11-week virtual preparation and integration program where modern psychedelic science meets ancient wisdom.

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Alright, that's it for now. Let's go ahead and dive into this episode, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tracey Tee.

0:06:28.4 PA: Hey listeners, welcome back to The Psychedelic Podcast. I'm your host, Paul Austin. Today we have Tracey Tee, who is joining us, and Tracey is... I'm gonna go ahead and say the mom who microdoses not just a mom who microdoses, she has been at the front of a lot of the conversation over the last three to six months on moms who are microdosing and has helped to cultivate a community of moms who are interested in microdosing, and so we brought her on the podcast today to talk about that overlap, about moms who microdose.

0:07:00.8 PA: So Tracey, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here.

0:07:03.2 TT: Thank you, likewise. It's good to be here.

0:07:05.7 PA: So before we went live, we were talking a little bit about your story and you know how you became involved in this space, and I'd love just to just open that up for the audience. As a mom, how did you come to microdosing and what did it do? What was the impact of microdosing for you?

0:07:31.5 TT: Yeah, yeah, I've... Kind of a funny story. I came to microdosing in the middle of the pandemic, like a lot of people. I have actually been working in the mom space for about 10 years. I had a comedy, a live comedy show for parents called The Pump and Dump Show that I co-created and wrote, produced and performed with my best friend and business partner. We toured the country, criss-cross went to every comedy club, music venue, performing arts complex theatre you can think of performing our show. And the point of the show was really to bring moms together and laugh about the things we have in common. And it was amazing, and eventually in 2018, our bodies were broken from touring while raising kids, and we decided to sort of pass the torch and created two new casts, one out of LA, one out of Chicago with the intention of touring regionally. We were days away from signing an off-Broadway run in New York for The Pump and Dump Show, and then COVID hit and we lost everything.

0:08:35.6 TT: We had to cancel almost 100 shows within two weeks, and I watched this thing that we created that started in the throes of new parenthood, started in a bar for free in Northwest Denver just slipped through our hands, and the loss was palatable on all levels. Not the least of which was financial. And I had been kind of on the spiritual path for a number of years and actually had been really called to plant medicine, specifically ayahuasca for a long time kind of way before it got trendy, but just... Especially given my job and how much I was traveling and just being a mother, I was just like, "Who goes to the Amazon rainforest for three weeks and leaves their tiny kids at home?" It just didn't seem like anything that was possible for me, so I put it on the back burner. And when we lost our business, I kind of in the middle of my grief, had this big spiritual awakening, and it really allowed me to start to heal decades of trauma and pain from a million different things, like we all carry in our lives, especially in our mid-40s. But certainly the loss of this business and the fear and uncertainty around the craziness of COVID, and through that, I just felt... I felt those mushrooms calling... When you get the call, I always say to people, it's like, you can't ignore it.

0:10:11.7 TT: I say they just like, they pack up their little mushroom suitcases and show up at your door, and if you open it, they just move on in, and that's sort of how I was. And I ended up doing... Going on a camping trip with some women in 2020 and did shrooms for the first time in my life at 45. And I knew that if it was the experience that I expected it to be, like this was something that I think was gonna be a new path, and it was. It was just one of those beautiful outdoor Colorado nights sitting at a lake, and I had all the amazing experiences you can imagine, saw every symbol that had ever been written in all of the languages, saw the fourth dimension, saw the protective grid over the universe and I was hooked. And microdosing for me after that seemed like a really... I don't know, it just seemed like a good idea. Like it made sense in my mind.

0:11:13.2 TT: I've also had a history of reproductive problems, I had stage four endometriosis my entire life. I had a horrible time getting pregnant. I had a horrible pregnancy, I ended up having to get a full hysterectomy at 41, which is its own journey. And that time I was put on Wellbutrin to cross the bridge from having hormones when you walk into the hospital to having zero hormones and going into instant menopause at 41 years old, when I left the hospital the next day. And I'm grateful for Wellbutrin because it helped manage that swing, but it was never anything that I intended to be on for a long time. And like many people on SSRIs or pharmaceuticals I just was like, "Well, what's the way out? Or is there something else?" And so I was looking at microdosing from a variety of standpoints, including reproductive health, what was left of my reproductive parts but...

0:12:17.1 TT: And my mood and my anxiety and my spirituality. And I ended up taking a microdosing course, and I somehow got the medicine. Got into a course. It was amazing. I started taking the medicine, I felt my life just go in this upward trajectory almost instantly. And that's not normal for everyone. But for me, I think I did a journey one time with my mentor, like about a year ago, and I was lying in a puddle on the floor crying, and I said, "I think I am just put in this world to take mushrooms." And I really believe it, I'm just one of those people that the medicine, it was just... We're just made for each other. And so as I started to soften and Alchemize all of the pain and grief that I had been experiencing as well as transmute a lot of the things I didn't love about myself. Like, I tend to be pretty reactive.

0:13:18.6 TT: I tend to internalize things and shove down my emotions, and I felt all of that kind of just falling off of me. But while I was taking the course, which I loved, there weren't a lot of moms on it. And the moms that were, I felt like we were just sort of looking at each other saying like, "It's different for us. Right? It's different." And while I was listening to other people talking, and it's not that their stories were as important or amazing, it's that I just felt over time that this medicine just hits different when you're a mother, we came and we come to this medicine for such different reasons, we come with different concerns. And we use it in a different way. We don't get three hours in the morning to do our yoga practice and journal and meditate, and we don't get two weeks in Bali and we don't get to go off on weekend retreats several times a year, those are just not opportunities that are generally available to busy moms, and your healing is different because of that.

0:14:26.7 TT: Our healing is done in between ballet practice and doctor's appointments and homework and birthday parties. And so it's a much different approach. And as I got deeper and deeper with this medicine, and I will attribute a lot of that to doing larger doses as well. It just became apparent to me that the thing we tried to do with the Pump and Dump Show, bringing moms together, laughing about the things we had in common, making moms feel not so alone, was the exact same thing that the medicine wants to do. But that was sort of the olden times, the before times, before COVID. And now I realized it was really time to start talking, and it was time to start getting to the heart of the matter and why do we feel so isolated? Why do moms feel so separated? Why do moms feel like they don't have a community? Why are we miserable? Why do we have such anxiety? Why are we overwhelmed, why are we drinking too much, why are we taking too many pills?

0:15:26.2 TT: And the truth is, the medicine just wants us to talk about it together. And so in meditation one day, I was just meditating and Moms on Mushrooms, M.O.M. just sort of landed in my head like a big aha moment, and I sat up and I was like, "Well, come on. That's amazing. Obviously, someone's thought of it." And ran to the computer and it was available, and I just sort of said, "Alright, God, that's message received." And as we started and finally closed down our business, I really felt like this was the next path for me to share not only my journey with the medicine, but just apply what I know to be true about mothers what I'd seen on the road for 10 years, and give them a tool to help. And there was a lot more that went into that. In 2021, my family was hit by a drunk driver at 11:00 in the morning outside Aspen, Colorado, my 10-year-old daughter at the time and my niece were in the car, we went through a guard rail, flew 30 feet in the air and landed in a ditch. Nothing that any mother wants to ever go through, and it was horrible. We were okay, like we walked ourselves into the ambulance, I'm still bruised from it. But I think I was able to alchemize that horrible thing because I had the help of the medicine.

0:16:51.1 TT: And that just... It felt like such an ally in the darkest moment of my life. And after a series of dark moments that had happened over the last couple of years. And so that felt very confirming to me as well, and the more I talked about it, the more I started telling moms, this is what I'm doing, and I wasn't drinking as much. I was not craving sugar, I gave up coffee, I was just happy in a sea of moms who're deeply unhappy. And I started to share about it, and women would just be like, "Well, tell me more... You're normal. You're a normal mom. Like, if you do it, then maybe it's okay." And, "Gosh, my husband... I'm miserable. My husband's miserable. We've tried everything, tell me more." And again, part of that then became confirmation too, that maybe this was something that moms really needed, and so... I haven't been doing this very long. At the end of 2021, we closed down Band of Mothers, The Pump and Dump Show for good. And over the holidays, like this course just sort of flooded out me, I was able to write like I haven't written in 10 years, and I'm a writer. And I took a chance on a few women who said, "Yeah, we wanna do a course with you." I kinda just asked, "Do you wanna try this?"

0:18:04.3 TT: And we started in January of 2022. By March, when we finished, I was on Zoom with them crying, "I'm gonna miss you guys so much, thank you so much." And these are women all over the country, and I said, "I can't thank you enough for doing this, I'm gonna miss seeing you." And they all looked back at me and said, "Well, we're not going anywhere. What else do you have?" And at that moment, I really felt like this was an opportunity. And so I kind of launched the business in March, and here we are. Now I have another facilitator, we have a portal that's off social media, an independent community, lots of different offerings. And my prayer is that M.O.M. really is just the central place for you to have a safe container to learn about not only plant medicine in general, but microdosing specifically, and apply it to your life in a safe and intentional way through communicating and doing this in communion with other moms. And that's where I am.

0:19:09.0 PA: I love it. And the the M.O.M. acronym is just so perfect. Moms on Mushrooms. When I saw that I was...

0:19:16.1 TT: It's pretty perfect.

0:19:16.9 PA: It is, it's so perfect. And to have that download, have that insight in a meditation, speaks to the sort of... Yeah. The insight that these magic mushrooms can, bring in many ways. And, I just wanna also acknowledge you, and thank you for sharing that story because of all of the challenges/ I mean, not only the reproductive issues, but getting hit by a drunk driver ending up in a ditch like that is... That is incredibly traumatic itself. And so to have these allies, in the medicines that can help you, like you said, to alchemize that, is so necessary and important. Now I have a couple follow up questions from that. The first one is, you mentioned that you were taking this course initially, that there were a couple moms in there, but not a ton necessarily. And you said that it's different for moms. And I'd love for you just to sort of elucidate that a little bit more. Why is it that moms are... Yeah. Why is it different for moms? What is it about the life of a mother that has its own sort of challenges and difficulties associated with it that microdosing can help with?

0:20:32.9 TT: Yeah. I... There's a few angles of why I think it's different. First of all, sort of what I said earlier, we approach this medicine differently. We, come to it with fragmented opportunities for healing. That is fit into a life that is already dominated by serving others. So, when you've got moms, I would say my daughter's 12 now, she's in sixth grade. Things are getting... They're getting easier in terms of the manual labor. They get harder in other aspects when you move into teenage years. But, I'm certainly not changing diapers and waking up and doing midnight feedings and all that. But, regardless, your time is not your own when you're a mom. And so then your healing is reflected by that. And there is a pervasive, I think, philosophy that mothers have bought into for generations, which is that we do not have permission to focus on ourselves.

0:21:42.5 TT: We don't really even necessarily believe at the core of it that we're women who just happen to be moms. We take on a full identity of a mother, and lose the fact that we're a woman too. And so it's a really hard transition to allow yourself to invite in something as polarizing and stigmatized as a psychedelic, on top of giving yourself permission to focus on yourself and not anybody else. So I think that's the biggest... That's one of the biggest hurdles. The second is just the unique challenges that mothers face in terms of mental health and physical health and spiritual health. And I think it's gone exponentially to the dark side over the last 10 years. I think as the dawn and the implementation of just being completely absorbed in a social media culture. The way our fast paced life has sped up, certainly the added pressures that happened when COVID hit and Zoom schools.

0:22:54.4 TT: The idea that this supermom mentality that we cannot seem to let go of, and we are overwhelmed, we are anxious. Moms are sad and feel very, very isolated despite all this "connection" that we say we have. And, as I learn more and I go deeper with this medicine and look back to history specifically, it's so obvious that we're so disconnected from any sense of ceremony of sacredness. Certainly we know that there's a massive disconnection from nature in most of our... Generally speaking in our Western culture. And I think all of that just leads to a mother in, particular feeling very hollow and without a lot of tools beyond what we're told we're allowed to have, which is wine and Xanax. Not a lot of tools... Or church. Not much else to apply to your own special life.

0:24:02.9 TT: And while, I'm not gonna say nobody should ever drink, and I think there's a place for church. I'm a big fan of Jesus. And I think that pharmaceuticals have their place and can be very beneficial. But I think all of them have been overused or oversimplified and made into a general thing when we're talking about individuals. And that's what I think, psilocybin specifically can offer to moms because it's gentle and it's loving and if you approach it from a microdose standpoint, you're not even high. So, kind of seems like a no-brainer.

0:24:44.5 PA: So I let Waldman, who you may be familiar with, she is a, mother of four, and she wrote a book called A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life. And she talked about how she had been on a cocktail of over the past several years, 30 different psychiatrics or pharmaceuticals and how one day LSD appeared in her mailbox, and she was able to go through a microdosing protocol with LSD. And she... And she wrote the book about it over the full 30 days, doing it twice a week following the Fadiman protocol. And one of the things that she mentioned in the book was how her kids started to notice and observe sort of a difference in how she was showing up, in her mood, all those sorts of things.

0:25:41.0 PA: So with any moms that are listening, the sort of core consideration is how will this impact my children? At the end of the day. Right? Like you said, and maybe even too much a little bit, right? There's too much of a focus on that, and yet that is what makes motherly love so, beautiful. Is that really the focus on the Children, right? Biologically this had to happen for eons in order to ensure the survival of the kids. So I'm curious, having microdosed yourself and gone through this process, how has your relationship with your... With your kids changed? Have they asked questions about it? Are they aware of it? Do they notice it? I'd just be curious like kind of that, that relationship and what it's like with with microdosing.

0:26:34.4 TT: Yeah, it's a great question. It's a very valid one. When I started... We have one daughter and she's just that unique kid that you can't lie to. Like I probably told her about Santa earlier than I would've wanted to. I cried, I think, more than she did. And so even though it's not... Microdosing isn't anything that they see, kind of like you would see someone sitting around drinking martinis, for example. You don't really... It's not an active thing. I felt like it was important not to hide it from her. And so we just... And my husband agreed. And so we just decided to be really open about it. And I really didn't really start talking to her about it until I would leave and go do a journey all day and be gone like all day on a Saturday.

0:27:25.8 TT: But yeah, she knows all about it. And, the other reason I felt compelled to be honest with her is that, I was a Chardonnay mom when she was born. I was the mom that was drinking a bottle of Chardonnay when she was 3 years old, at 3:00 in the afternoon with my girlfriends. And so she's been around alcohol and I had to... I really ask myself, is one better or worse than the other? And if I was willing to expose her to that, why wouldn't I at least be honest to her about what I'm trying to do to change and what I'm taking? And also, I think it's very important to raise our kids with a different relationship to "drugs." So yeah, she knows all about it. She knows what it looks like. She, knows that if mom or dad are making cacao, she... And there's a little bit extra she has to ask if there's anything in it. I show her what the dried mushrooms look like, and she's asked a million questions and... Yeah I think it's really important.

0:28:32.9 PA: How did you have that initial conversation with her? Like how, did you communicate around these... Around microdosing, around psilocybin mushrooms or around sort of drugs in general? Like, 'cause I feel like a lot of parents who are listening to this, they're actively working with psychedelics for healing and transformation. Some, I'm sure have communicated with their kids about it, and others I'm sure have not because of the sensitivity of what that could entail. What if... What if little Jimmy goes to school and tells a school teacher that mom is, taking acid in the afternoon, for example. So I'm curious, like how did you navigate that?

0:29:07.4 TT: Totally.

0:29:09.7 PA: How was that communication happening? Yeah, if you could go into more detail on that, that would be awesome.

0:29:14.6 TT: So I was lucky in that she was a little bit older. I think she was around 9 years old when I started, and felt like it was appropriate to talk to her about it. And I don't think I really brought it up. I'm trying to think when the first conversation was, it might have been early because she was probably like, "What are you doing on the Zoom call for this class?" And so I probably just told her what the class was. And then certainly when I started doing larger dose journeys and giving myself permission to leave the family for a little bit and explore the medicine on a deeper level, I just felt like I needed to tell her what I was doing. And, I think that, it's unique to every kid.

0:30:05.8 TT: I think using substances is tricky around children and you really just have to understand your kiddo. One thing that we committed to as she got older is, just really never being fucked up around her, right? Because it's very scary for a child. And so, we use the idea that like, okay, when it's Sunday dinner and Grandma and Nana and everybody are drinking wine and... But everyone's the same, but also like inside of that sameness, sometimes people can get happier or whatever. And that's sort of the same landscape as microdosing can offer. So I know I'm not being very specific, but I just kind of just answered the questions and then I've been very clear about like what psilocybin is. And yes, I was concerned about the, conversation at school and she goes to a private Catholic school, so it's even a little bit more like we're not Catholic, but that's where she goes.

0:31:13.4 TT: And, I have to say a funny story. And I think she's seen me be happier and happier and just, so filled up by starting Moms on Mushrooms. And certainly when I officially started Moms on Mushrooms, like it's just out there, so she just knows. So we talk about drugs, we talk about... We live in Colorado, so, once she could start to read, "What's that mean? What is Green King?" And she's pointing at cannabis stores, so like, we've had this natural conversation around substances for a while. But she came home from school one day and said that someone was talking about mushrooms 'cause someone was wearing a mushroom T-shirt. And this girl was like, "If you take mushrooms, you are gonna die." And my daughter goes, "No, you're not. They're good for you." And the girl's like, "No, they're really bad." And then like my daughter was like, "That's not true. If you take them responsibly, they're not addictive." And kind of like went into the whole thing and, defended psilocybin in the fifth grade. So, I guess it works.

0:32:13.7 PA: Sign her up as a brand ambassador.

0:32:17.8 TT: I know.

0:32:17.9 PA: That's fantastic. And that educational process is so key because, like you said, it tends to be very much hidden. It tends to be very much not talked about. It's like sex in that way. Right? And obviously with the sort of mainstream education around drugs with programs like DARE, it's very focused on, oh my God, these are all the negative things, rather than providing a balanced approach. Now with that said, things like harder drugs, crystal meth, heroin, cocaine. Right? Absolutely. Like I think it is good perspective and advice to tell everyone to stay away from, those substances. But as we both know, psilocybin mushrooms are incredibly different. And so to hear that she now feels even confident enough where she will stick up to someone, is great because as we know, mushrooms, not even just psilocybin mushrooms, but all mushrooms have been sort of poo-pooed in, in western culture because of their association... From, my perspective, because of their association with death. Like if you eat even the wrong wild mushroom, it could kill your liver And knock you out. Right? And so there's like a... There's a reason that was the case. And as we all know, there's sort of a resurgence now, not only in psilocybin mushrooms, but functional mushrooms, Reishi, Turkey Tail, Lion's Mane, about how useful they can be.

0:33:44.0 TT: Totally. And to my credit and hers, we've been a mushroom family for a long time. Like, I love.

0:33:50.1 PA: Of course.

0:33:50.9 TT: I mean, clearly I love mushrooms. But like I, we've been taking functional mushrooms for years. She takes them, we cook with them. I buy... We go to the farmer's market when we can, we look at the different varieties we make... So she's well versed in mushrooms too. But I think that's good. I mean, I think it's part of dispelling this fear around it all.

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0:36:01.6 PA: Okay, so follow up question from that. There are a number of people that I know that I've talked to, some of which are friends of mine, they're parents, they maybe have a son or they have a daughter, or they have a son and a daughter or a few kids. And one of their considerations is, by no means for a... How old is your daughter now? 11 or 12 at this point? Probably 11.

0:36:25.5 TT: 12, yeah.

0:36:26.6 PA: 12. Okay. So by no means are you gonna be like... What's your daughter's name?

0:36:30.9 TT: Evelyn.

0:36:33.4 PA: Evelyn. Beautiful. Oh, I love that name. That's it. So by no means you're gonna be like, "Evelyn's 12. Evelyn, you should go do some magic mushrooms." She's way too young. It's not the right time. And we don't really have like indigenous... Indigenous cultures. We don't necessarily have that baked into our cultural structure, right. With indigenous cultures sometimes they will do rights of passage, for children who are 13, 14, 15 with these things, but that's a lot more frowned upon in, our world. So I'm, curious how you even think about that. At what point do you potentially introduce, Evelyn, to this experience? Is it something that you would wanna do with her? Is it something where you'll let her come to it in her own time? Just how, do you even think about that sort of landscape of potentially when Evelyn is ready, how does she navigate that? How do you talk with her about that, etcetera, etcetera?

0:37:28.1 TT: Yeah, that's a great question I've done... I've thought a lot about that. And my philosophy is, I think those rights of passage are part of what's keeping us feeling disconnected as a society. And I think it's important to bring those rights of passage back. So in a perfect world when she's 16, I would love to expose her to, obviously not three grams, but enough to give her, an experience in a guided... In a guided place. One of the interesting things about the car accident is that led me to my mentor who, is a shaman and also a therapist and has been working underground for years. And I found her because I was so desperate to find someone to treat Evie and help get the light back in her eyes. And good luck finding a child therapist in these times. And by a series of fortuitous events we were led to this woman. She saw Evie first. One session. Evie was like, "Great, got it. I'm good. Accident. Got it, cleared it. Understand." And then she saw my husband and myself and has turned out to become my mentor. So no, irony lost in that... In that whole situation. But I'm fortunate because we have someone like her and our family, and my dream would be that she would go with her and do it... They would do it together.

0:39:00.0 TT: If she wanted me there, I'd be happy to. More than I'd be honored. But I think it's really important. Now, on the flip side, as every parent knows, when a kid has a mom and a dad that's passionate about something, they will not do it. So right now, her stance is, "I will never take mushrooms." Not because she's scared, because she's so tired of me talking about it. So we'll see, you know? But she certainly is exposed and I would hope before she goes off to college, at the very least, that we would have an experience together. And I'm... I think it's, I think it's completely fine. I think it's necessary. And I think it could be life changing. I think if I was exposed to that during those late teen years, I can't even imagine what kind of a person I would be, let alone just allowing that fear.

0:39:50.9 TT: I mean, I was... I was raised in the DARE era. I was raised with Reaganomic parents, and I can't even imagine what I would've... What I would've done with my life. And I'm not really a fearful person if I just didn't have that wall around me. On the other hand, another thing that I think is important to state too, is I have a lot of older nieces and nephews that are in, late high school, college. And, I talked to Evie about it a little bit as well. 'Cause again, she's not... She's... The idea of, of going into an altered state is a little scary for her right now because she's still in her imagination. She's still a really innocent, beautiful little girl. But for my older nieces and nephews, when we're talking and we're talking about going to parties and boys and all the things, and I say, "Look, if you're at a party, here's the rules of the game right now."

0:40:43.7 TT: "Like, don't accept a drink from a guy that you don't know that's open, that you don't know where it came from." And if it's between booze and cannabis and mushrooms that someone's offering you, always take the mushrooms. Test it first and here's a test kit. But like, always take the mushrooms. So I feel like that that is something that parents... The more you get used to and understand this medicine, that... I feel like that's an opportunity to really change this binge over drinking. Very scary culture that our teenagers and college-aged kids are in. And certainly I was no stranger to over drinking in school. But times are different now and there's so many more concerns. So I think teaching that as well is important.

0:41:30.7 PA: I'm glad you brought that up, that was something I felt very fortunate. I had my first experience with psilocybin when I was 19. I was a sophomore in college. And about five months after that first psilocybin experience, I did LSD for the first time. And the LSD experience was incredibly profound and impactful and transformative. And it's something I feel really grateful for, that I didn't really do them in party settings necessarily, or recreational settings. Meaning at raves or just to sort of get high. It was very... It was done usually with a couple friends in either a private home or, at the woods. So in Michigan we have these beautiful sand dunes that are on Lake Michigan. So we would go in the woods and go hiking and watch the sunset. And it was... It was always so meaningful.

0:42:19.5 PA: And I remember, from those early psychedelic experiences when I was 19, 19 and 20, I cut my drinking significantly. I still drank through college. I still got drunk from time to time. But I started to prefer doing... Like there would be days on a, let's say a Saturday where I would take acid at 10:00 AM. I would go out hiking all day, and then in the evenings I would sort of be on the, the comedown and go out to a party and socialize and maybe have a beer, but not necessarily be sort of push myself to get drunk so I could "fit in." And, so there was a really beautiful flow with it. And I love what you said about sort of alcohol, cannabis, and mushrooms. And the one caveat that I would say about choosing the mushrooms is to do lower amounts. Because taking a high, high dose of mushrooms in a party setting could also be traumatic in its own way. Right? And so if going for the mushrooms to take that lower dose or even a microdose, you can feel it a little bit, but you're not necessarily put into the hell realms in the middle of a frat party or whatever it is, you know?

0:43:32.9 TT: No, totally. And I didn't mean to sound super, cavalier about it. The... But what happens when you start having these incremental conversations with children about this, and they know that mom is taking it themselves, is that they are raised with context. And when they have context, they don't abuse because they know... I didn't know when I was in college, I had no idea that magic mushrooms had a sacred component to it. It was not in anything that I had ever learned. So I would've... If I had done it, I would've taken a handful and tried to get as messed up as possible. But I think if we start having these conversations, and again, we bring the sacredness back. Which is also just means like looking to our elders, looking to the original peoples that have been working with this for generations and generations and learning from them and taking some of that and putting it into our very bifurcated culture. My prayer is that we raise kids like you who go hike. Like, what a great Saturday. Take some acid, go for a hike, go to a party, but you're not puking in the trash bins at the end of the night. Like, that's amazing.

0:44:47.3 PA: And I sort of... It's not as if my parents supported this or really most of the people that I went to college with, 'cause I went to a private Christian liberal arts school. But at the same time, I trusted my own experience and just notice and observe that, oh my gosh, like after I take a high dose of acid for the next week to two weeks to three weeks, my social anxiety is lower. I'm more connected, I'm more present, I'm making better decisions. Right. It was, it was obviously clear that alcohol was an inferior substance compared to some of these... Some of these psychedelics. So, and, and I think that is, right? The nuance that can be brought to the drug conversation is so critical as we raise children. So it's not, yeah, just go get drunk every weekend in college, but instead it's really looking at how does that impact my development? How does that impact my school. How does that... There's so many sort of negative downstream effects from the overconsumption of alcohol, that, I think intentional use of some of these psychedelic acceptances are a phenomenal replacement for the, the intoxication of a booze more or less.

0:46:00.7 TT: A hundred percent. And also understanding that like, that's only what you take. Like you don't take mushrooms and then go get drunk on top of it. There's like learning where the lines of demarcation are and really how to, use it wisely.

0:46:13.4 PA: Yeah. There are parameters in, in many ways yes to that. And as teenage adolescents, they're not necessarily the best at staying within parameters. But as long as that's communicated and it's understood, that's better than not having any context whatsoever. And like you said, just taking a bunch of mushrooms and, see what happens. So the next, the next sort of part of this conversation we would love to get into are A, why are people joining Moms on Mushrooms? So these moms who are coming in, what are some stories that you commonly hear about what they're struggling with or what they're confronting or, or what they're facing, when they're... When they're looking to join and be part of the community?

0:47:00.6 TT: Yeah. I would say 90% of the people who come to Moms on Mushrooms are on one, if not several medications. One of which is an SSRI. Another one of which may be a mood stabilizer or a very intense, sleeping aid like Ambien or Xanax. And they have been on them for two things either just started and instantly hate it or have been on it for so long, they don't even know if they're working. And something in their soul is saying, "I think there's something better." And no one, obviously that's coming to M.O.M. and looking to microdosing is saying that these are working great, right? Like, they're coming knowing that they have all this doctors and teams and been told in these prescriptions, but they just... It's just not doing what they need. And that is due to... And coming to those medicines is due to a... There's a pervasive sense of unsustainable anxiety on a day-to-day basis. Like anxiety that you can't... You can't really function.

0:48:16.4 TT: A lot of fear... A lot of... And then overwhelm comes in with that. And again, not to harp on the pandemic, but I really think it did a number. We know it did a number on a lot of people, and it did a lot of number on moms. There's a lot of concern, a lot of fear about detachment from our kids. And like fear of being away from our kids, especially if you're a mom of littles. And you add that to your own sense of anxiety, your own sense of separation, possible... Just who knows what kind of interactions that those d medications are having on you. So you're not even like thinking clearly. And then there's that. And or moms are also acknowledging that they're drinking too much, that they're turning to alcohol to cope and they want... They don't know how to have a way out.

0:49:10.7 TT: They don't necessarily think that they're, on the alcoholic AA range, but they know they wish they could get through a Wednesday night making dinner without a couple glasses of wine. And again, no tools. And then I think the last bucket is truly just dealing with grief. So many of us have lost people, parents loved ones and or just coming to that age. And I think something happens when you turn 40 and you're a woman too. You start to really look at the world from a different lens and understanding that these traumas that maybe you had, certainly abusive parents, alcoholic parents, horrible things that happen to most of us at some point in our lives start to really well up and a lot of women... And it's so beautiful right now. It's such an amazing moment. They just actively do not want to carry that in to how they raise their kids. And they are willing to do anything to change it. And, it feels like their sense is, is that maybe microdosing can help them. And I think that is profoundly brave and beautiful and a true pivotal moment I think for women and mothers in our culture.

0:50:33.5 PA: Yeah. Cutting the cord of sort of lineage and trauma that is in lineage is something we hear a lot about the sort of the... The... What psychedelics can do, right? They can help us cut that cord, they can help us to create a new story so we're not beholden to the same patterns. The same familial patterns, and that our children don't have to go through the same suffering necessarily.

0:51:00.5 TT: And it really... We talk a lot about this in my courses, is that the story stops with you, right? Like it can stop with you. Like whatever you were raised on, whatever you were told, whatever belief systems are embedded in your cells, whatever you think you have to do, it can stop with you. And from here on out, anything is possible. And you have the choice to raise your children in a completely different way. And it's amazing how many women are actively seeking that and want it for themselves and their families.

0:51:34.8 PA: So let's talk a little bit about microdosing during and after pregnancy. 'Cause this is a... This is a question that I've received a lot over the years. And, the first part of the question is, I'm pregnant. I was microdosing before I was pregnant. Can I microdose while I'm pregnant? Is that acceptable? Is that dangerous? What's the science out there? And then the second question is, Okay, I've had my child and I have postpartum depression and I'm breastfeeding, can I microdose while I'm breastfeeding to help with the postpartum depression. How do you... When, and I'm sure there are women in your community who have asked this. How do you approach that? What's your philosophy on that? Just give us a little bit of insight into how to... How to think about that.

0:52:21.8 TT: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you and I both know there's not a lot of science out there on it.

0:52:26.7 PA: Correct.

0:52:27.1 TT: There's very limited studies. So addressing microdosing and pregnancy. If you were a microdosing before and you got pregnant, I wouldn't worry too much because A, you're taking such a small amount and we know that psilocybin leaves the body typically within 24 hours. So unless you're, taking one plus grams day after day and it's compounding in your system, I really... I wouldn't... I would let that one go. I think the kid's gonna be fine, if not, maybe better. Who knows? Now microdosing while pregnant, for me, that's a big question mark in the... In the interest of being overly safe, I would just maybe say, don't. That being said, every doctor or scientist that I've spoken to who's... The anecdotal response is if SSRIs, and we're talking about serotonin, are prescribed during pregnancy, and they don't consider that to be a concern to pass into the baby, you can apply a similar philosophy for psilocybin.

0:53:40.5 TT: It makes logical sense. And I think it has... I think there is a very... Again, talk about a line of demarcation. I mean, if your mental health is in such hard shape while you're having... While you're growing a baby and you're concerned about your state of wellness and microdosing is helping, I would say that's the more important thing. Because the damage you can do to a baby, as we know when you're mentally unwell, when you're in a form of trauma, can cause much more damage to a child than taking a substance. So that is... Not... I am not a doctor and I... If I was getting pregnant tomorrow, would I do it? I don't know. I think it would depend on where I was at in life. So that's how I feel about pregnancy. Postpartum, and breastfeeding, we have had many moms come through the M.O.M. course and from seven weeks on and breastfeed their children and decide to microdose.

0:54:47.7 TT: And again, kind of back to that same thing, it's like, either I worry about this going into my baby, or I worry about me being with my baby. And it's... And so, you look at microdosing as a way to help you be a better mom. And I... There's some studies, there's one in particular, I could probably pull it up, that offers that the proteins, in psilocybin don't latch onto the lipids in breast milk. So there's not a major concern that it will pass into the baby. And, if you are overly concerned, that's what pumping is for y'all, just wait 24 hours, give them a bottle and take your microdose. I mean, we're not microdosing every day anyway. So if mental health is more important, then, you can be creative and you can give your baby breast milk. Wait for it, your microdose to cycle through, give them a bottle for a day, and then go back to the boob on an off day.

0:55:49.1 TT: And I think that... That, I wouldn't... I really wouldn't worry about that, especially if you're getting happy. And I think for postpartum, again, I think about that too, because I had some serious postpartum issues having had an emergency C-section and a bunch of different stuff happen. If I could have microdosed in that first year, oh my gosh, I can't even imagine. But that being said, microdosed, with an intentional practice and with support, not just throwing it back... Throwing back a pill and waiting for it to change you. Like also implementing other practices as well. So, that's what I know or what I could say.

0:56:31.1 PA: And that feels very balanced. The place that I tend to go for pregnancy just to avoid any challenges or controversy is, no during pregnancy. Although I love your point about Prozac and SSRIs and how small the actual amount of the substance is. And I think with postpartum depression again, we're talking about trade offs. If, microdosing is really helping you to feel better, to be a better mom, to be more connected, there are various ways to work with it. Like you said, you can pump on off days because the psilocybin is leaving the system. That all feels super grounded and super clear. So the, follow up question that I would have to that is you mentioned... Which we're, in full agreement on, the need for an intentional practice with microdosing is... It isn't just necessarily about taking the drug, kind of like how we've been conditioned. Just take Prozac and you'll feel better. But it really is, utilizing microdosing as a catalyst. What have you seen... What works for moms who are struggling with postpartum depression? If they are microdosing, what are some of the practices or activities that help them to feel more connected, that help to improve mood? What are the... Some of the things that you may know of or have heard about or the people in your community are utilizing.

0:57:57.0 TT: First, I just wanna say that it's my belief that postpartum can last years. So this idea that you have a baby, and you're depressed for three months. And then you just bounce back, and you're a super mom for the rest of your life, I think is not realistic. I think you can have postpartum depression when your kid is 5. I think a lot of women don't recover from birth, and we don't acknowledge it. And it can manifest much later in your child's life, and I think that that needs to be recognized. What can help a mom with postpartum? I think beyond anything, the number one thing that helps is community. You have to not feel like you are alone. And depending on the individual situation, whether you have a partner, whether that partner is supportive, whether that partner is able to be home with you, whether you're single, whether you have family in the area that you can count on. But community is the thing that can keep you going when you cannot barely stand up.

0:59:05.5 TT: And without community, I don't think anything is possible. So if I was gonna tell any mom that was struggling, it's get yourself in a community, get some help. Because the second most important thing for a mom who's struggling is the ability to have time and not have to do everything herself and to have time to rest, have time to heal physically. Your hormones are out of whack. Have time to go outside, go for a walk, all the things we hear: Exercise, good health, good food, sleep. And regulating those things and getting support in that is gonna do a world of good, way more than I think even microdosing will. And if you can get that created... And that's again why I kind of created M.O.M. Yes, we're virtual, but at least it's a community. It's women gathering around two shared experiences, psilocybin and motherhood.

1:00:02.4 TT: It's a start, and if you can get to there and you're feeling like you're off, you know in your soul something's wrong. You know you're unstable. You're not feeling grounded, all those things that every person, whether you're a man, woman, whatever, you know when you're off. If you start a microdosing practice and you have those things in place, then it's gonna be easier for you to implement more of a sacred or intentional practice around the microdose. But I think the expectation that this is a panacea, that this is a magic pill, you're not gonna get shit from it, frankly. And I think the other thing that is very shocking to a lot of women, certainly who come through the M.O.M. courses, is that you may very likely feel very uncomfortable for a while while you start microdosing because you gotta get those feelings out. You gotta get the uglies out like we tell our kids.

1:00:53.7 TT: And we're so conditioned to not want to feel uncomfortable. We don't wanna be cold. We don't wanna be hot. We don't wanna be thirsty. We don't wanna be hungry. We don't... And we wanna exercise, but we wanna lose 10 pounds in a week when we start. Like we want all the things. We want instant access to what we wanna watch, and when we want... When we take a drug, we want it to work instantly because that's how we've been taught, but that is not how this medicine works. It's definitely not how microdosing works. So the willingness and the vulnerability to feel uncomfortable, knowing that on the other side of that is expansion and freedom and feeling secure in that uncomfortableness, but you can't do that. You can't cry for a week and really purge a bunch of stuff if you don't have a support system. So I think that's the recipe for success I could offer.

1:01:43.6 PA: I love it. So community, spaciousness, and what I wrote down as willful participation. You have to be willing to commit and engage and grow with it, especially in community. So with Moms on Mushrooms, tell us a little bit about the vision of that in terms of how do you see it growing and evolving? What are some initiatives that maybe you have coming up that would be exciting to talk about? Just what is the next maybe year to two years to three years look like for Moms on Mushrooms?

1:02:22.6 TT: Yeah, I think I see it growing and evolving into a space that is sort of the water cooler for moms to talk about healing with the sacred use of plant medicine. And in no way do I see myself at the center of that water cooler at all. I think that there are amazing mothers who have been doing amazing work for decades with this medicine, who have so much to offer. And I would love for M.O.M. to be the hub where you know that you can get vetted, good, ethical, very focused and intentional practitioners or guides or coaches or whatever so that you can work with this medicine and really learn about it. And I think what I hope is that M.O.M. starts to through our programming through our courses and different offerings, we start to allow moms to unlearn what it means to work with the medicine and unlearn what it means to heal, which is it goes... It swings, the pendulum swings both ways.

1:03:32.2 TT: It's, A, not just throwing something back and then three days later going, "Why hasn't my life changed?" And it's also maybe not just sitting with the same therapist for 15 years. Like maybe that's not working. If you're seeing the same person for 15 years, talking about the same stuff, and in the middle, there's a possibility for change. And so we offer cohort courses because again, community and the medicine is the heart of Moms on Mushrooms. So getting together with a group of women and showing up with an open heart and vulnerable to peel back the onion layers and really look at yourself as you progress with the microdosing practice is I think super important. And then also providing ideas, not dogma, but ideas and access to tools so that you can create your own intentional practice so that you can create your own healing path. And that looks different for everyone, but you don't know what you don't know, right?

1:04:34.3 TT: So one person it might be breath work. For another person, it might be meditation. For another person, it might be running. And all things are good. It doesn't have to look a certain way, but you gotta do something. And I think we... So I hope that M.O.M. becomes a place for mothers to give themselves permission to find that thing and also give themselves permission to be different from all the other moms because we're all different people. And in terms of advocacy, certainly my vision for Moms on Mushrooms is that a million moms stand behind this medicine because I think when moms stand behind this and when moms start to heal, like I said, the story changes with us. And if a million moms stand behind the intentional safe use of psychedelics, we're not gonna be having any of these prop-anything discussions. It's gonna be legal.

1:05:27.1 TT: And we raise our children in a completely different way, and we expand and grow as women. And we lead lives in a completely different way. So I'm committed to advocating for passing things legally, for keeping this medicine sacred and for education around it on all levels, just not only the misinformation behind the fact that it's not your brain dripping out your ear. But also that again, it's not a magic bullet and that we need to have some respect for the stuff. And inside that like let's have some fun. One thing that moms have forgotten too is just to have some freaking fun. And one of my mentors, Robin Alexandra, she's like, "There's nothing wrong with taking 250 milligrams and going on a hike or going to a concert or going on a date. These are good things that make life worth living." And I think we need to not forget that it's okay to laugh and let loose and dance, and I think psychedelics are great for that too.

1:06:34.1 PA: There's certainly a healing that happens with these, and there's also like you said, there's expansion, transformation, a capacity to enjoy life even more. And being open to both is important. And I love that idea of one million moms. I remember when we first connected a couple of months ago, you would emphasize that as well like, "Hey, if we can shift the dialogue with moms, they're the ones who hold a lot of power in many ways, a lot of the energy." And so I think to have that as a grounded objective, how do one million moms learn about these medicines? That's super, super important. Beautiful, well, this has been a blast.

1:07:27.3 PA: I feel like this is gonna be one of those episodes that gets passed around to all of the moms, even those who are listening who aren't necessarily moms, certainly no moms, a lot of moms. And so I appreciate you coming on, sharing your story, providing some both philosophical but also tactical advice to those who are listening. If people wanna find out more about... If there are moms listening to this, what website to check out? Is there a social platform? How to follow up and stay engaged and look deeper into what it is that you're doing?

1:08:06.7 TT: Yeah, thank you. So momsonmushrooms.com is gonna be in the landing page, our portal and our community. I created it intentionally off social media so that it's away from prying eyes, it's away from advertisers algorithms so that moms feel very safe to join the portal. We have a monthly membership there. It's four bucks a month. I kinda call it Facebook for moms on shrooms. And inside that, like I said, there's three-month courses. There's some stand-alone courses, and then we're rolling out tons of programming in 2023 so that if you're a member of our... It's called The Grow. If you're a member of our membership, you have access to lots of different opportunities, meet-ups, all the things. And you can kind of bounce all of that if you just go to momsonmushrooms.com.

1:08:57.2 TT: I do have an Instagram page, MomsonMushroomsOfficial. I don't post there very often. It's not my main focus. My main focus is our portal, and so I invite anyone to join again, four bucks a month, try it out for a few months. There's tons of resources, interviews, podcasts, scientific papers. Anything new I see on the science front that I think is relative to moms pertaining to psychedelics, I always post in catalog, so you guys have access to it. And there's hundreds of really amazing mothers out there learning about this themselves, willing to share their experience. And that's the most important thing of all. So that's how you find me.

1:09:37.4 PA: Beautiful. Momsonmushrooms.com, monthly membership is $4 a month. Tracey, thank you again for coming on the podcast today. Thank you for... You've also had quite a bit of media that's come out the last while. So thank you for sticking yourself, sticking your neck out there and really having the courage to do that. I can imagine that it's not always the easiest thing. Certainly, there's a lot of upside, but I imagine there's also some challenge and difficulty to that. So I appreciate you doing everything that you're doing, and it was lovely to connect with you for the show today.

1:10:10.7 TT: Paul, thank you. I appreciate you as well. If it wasn't people like you doing LSD in college, man, I wouldn't have these opportunities. So I'm very grateful.

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